Is my "Railroad" Waltham as made or has it been altered?

[Kate N]

I have an open faced, gold-filled case, 21 jewel, 1908 model, grade 1621, 16 size Waltham made in 1937, with a Montgomery dial.
What I find odd is that it is stem wind and stem set.
I am wondering if this "Railroad" watch was made this way for use by non-RR owners or was it converted from lever set to stem set?
Thank-you, in advance.

[Kate N]

I have an open faced, gold-filled case, 21 jewel, 1908 model, grade 1621, 16 size Waltham made in 1937, with a Montgomery dial.
What I find odd is that it is stem wind and stem set.
I am wondering if this "Railroad" watch was made this way for use by non-RR owners or was it converted from lever set to stem set?
Thank-you, in advance.

[Kent]

Hi Kate:

The Waltham 1621 Riverside is only adjusted to temperature. Since railroad standards of the twentieth century require adjustment to position, the 1621 was not considered to be a railroad watch and it extremely unlikely that it would have ever passed inspection and gotten into service.

That being the case, Waltham made a pendant-set version and a number of examples are in the data base that Ed Ueberall and I maintain. What's the serial number?

[Kate N]

Thanks, Kent. I wasn't aware that you and Ed Ueberall maintain a database--I'm too new to be in the know :redface:
You are right on the money about the adjustments--only says that it's adjusted for temperature.
My watch is serial # 29417304.
It doesn't seem to be a mismatched dial/movement, as I've seen others on the big E which appear to even be in the same case.
Perhaps Waltham decided to market to those consumers wanting a RR type watch, but without a RR quality movement--to lower the price and make people feel they were getting something special for their money.

[Kent]

Hi Kate:

There's no reason you should have known, or be embarrased about not knowing, that Ed and I keep a data base of railroad watches, or other watches of interest (Ed doesn't understand why I'm interested in the 1621, and I'm not sure I understand either). Anyway, page 109 of “Serial Numbers With Description of Waltham Watch Movements,” Waltham Watch Co., Waltham, MA, 1954, (commonly referred to as "The Gray Book) shows three separate, contiguous runs of the 1621:

29,415,001 - 29,416,200 > LS
29,416,201 - 29,417,000 > PS
29,417,001 - 29,420,000 > PS

They're all shown as unadjusted, but the 1621 is widely known to have been adjusted to temperature. I've seen early examples from the late 1930s with double-sunk dials (including Montgomery dials), but the vast majority had single-sunk, imitation double-sunk, dials (more properly referred to as "Inner Circle" dials), marked "Waltham - 21 Jewels." Its hard to say if those early ones came from the factory with double-sunk dials, or had them added post-production. Occasionally, the dials might also be marked "Special Railway" or "Railway Dispatcher (http://photos16.flickr.com/19894544_4fe8f01d74_o.jpg)." There may have been other additional names. Also, in the very late 1930s and early 1940s, Waltham marked both the dials and cases as "Premier." The early production of the Riverside 1621 are damaskeened in the classic manner. This disappeared as the demands of war production required reductions in labor.

These were sold as a complete watch in a factory-marked case. Its intended market was probably transit workers and those railroaders not under the time service rules. I suspect that a large number of Waltham-signed factory cases were stripped off of the 1621 by collectors and dealers, and used as replacements for the 1623 Vanguards whose cases were worn through to the brass.

Here's what we have in our data base from the above group of runs (now including your watch):

29,415,028 LS, 21J Dial
29,415,252 Dial "Waltham Railway Special"
29,415,430 A5P(?), 21J Dial
29,415,715 Adj Temp, 21J Dial
29,415,779 21J Dial
29,415,788 Adj Temp, 21J Dial
29,416,428
29,417,304 PS, Adj Temp
29,417,760 PS, Adj, 21J Dial
29,417,760 PS, 21J Dial
29,419,085
29,419,326 PS, 21J Dial
29,419,394 Adj Temp, 21J Inner Circle Dial
29,419,590 21J Dial

If the setting isn't noted, than it's type wasn't reported. The pendant-set version is much less common than the lever-set version, but there are still so many that they're not at all rare. The 21J dials are all inner circle dials, we just switched the way we recorded them.

[Kate N]

Hmmm, I've never actually had the dial off, so it must be the "inner-circle", rather than an actual Montgomery dial.
The dial looks exactly like this one:dial picture (http://i1.ebayimg.com/04/i/04/4c/c3/60_1_b.JPG)
In fact, judging by the design, the case is likely to be the same as mine, also.
The case is cut to accomodate a lever at both 11 and 1 o'clock positions. It's a Keystone Victory 10K Rolled Gold Plate case.
Thanks again, Kent, for all the info. Your knowledge-sharing is truly appreciated!

[Kate N]

Forgot to add that it is nicely damaskeened--in case you're keeping track.

[Kent]

Kate:

That dial looks like a double-sunk dial, but its hard to tell from the picture. The "Railway Dispatcher" dial only has a black circle to give the impression that center is at a different level from the hour figures. But, the dial you pictured looks like the center is sunken below the level of the hour figures - very nice!

I think that an orignial case would only have the lever slot at the 56 minute position.

[Kate N]

The bad news is that it's only single-sunk, at the subseconds. What appears to be a black line, is a black line.
The good news is that you've been patient and kind enough to share your knowledge with me--and I can see that you are quite knowledgeable.
Many thanks, Kent!