992B Movement markings variations

[John Harris]

In my short time with these watches I have noticed at least 3 different styles or placement of the words on the movement. Can any of you post pictures of the different styles?

[John Harris]

In my short time with these watches I have noticed at least 3 different styles or placement of the words on the movement. Can any of you post pictures of the different styles?

[terry hall]

Well I can get em all....... almost 500,000 #'s apart.

An Early one. (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/earlyc583.jpg)


A middle one. (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/middlec282123.jpg)

And

A Late one. (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/late.jpg)This one is C508787.

I have not determined a 'break point' for the changes....[heck just started looking].... But I have seen C402652 with the middle style and I also own C440495 [which has original boxes and labels].... It has the same markings as the late style.
Let's see if the codes worked this time.


They didn't!



[This message has been edited by terry hall (edited 06-26-2002).]

[Lindell V. Riddle]

You'll NEVER stump Terry Hall on a 992-B, way to go!

[terry hall]

Please.... don't try...... It can be done! :biggrin:

Just was reported C196551, it has the "middle" pattern.

I guess we need to call it 'second signature'.

AND after I posted the above.....
C 132986 has second signature.
Could this change in signature follow the change in center wheels????????

6-28-02 It appears that the change in signature came before the change in wheels.. read post below

[This message has been edited by terry hall (edited 06-26-2002).]

[This message has been edited by terry hall (edited 06-28-2002).]

[terry hall]

Chris,
Michael Chamelin and I have been working on this and will attempt to publish.

The main focus of the database was establishing a relationship to movement serial number to wadsworth case serial number[models 2,2[tutone],8,10 and crossbar]. Doing this research has branched off into obtaining other features, like this one.

We feel we need a wider base of information before assembling our conclusions. We would like to have more examples of Factory boxed versions which still have their original labels on the boxes. As I have stated before, what would be even better would be records from sales agents documenting purchase dates and sales dates.

Mike and I have talked about a 12 to 18 month completion date.

[John Harris]

terry Hall

Thanks for those pictures. Please let us know when your book comes out. I want one!

[terry hall]

Some new information has come forth... [THANKS FRED].

It appears the change between the first signature and the second falls between C30,898 and 42,936. Further information can narrow this point down.
So the change in gold center wheels is independent of the change in movment markings.

Some further study is also happening to see if there were more than the three signature styles.... will update this as it proves out.

[John Harris]

I found what I believe to be a first marking with a serial number of C35762 on EBAY. If it is correct you can move your lower limit up.

JMH http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=889470572

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NAWCC Member Number 0156136

[terry hall]

JohnH, thanks!
Looks correct to me... have updated DB.

You get a big ATTABOY this afternoon!
I appreciate it.

[terry hall]

NEVER SAY NEVER!

WE NOW HAVE THE FOURTH VARIATION......


EDITED TO REMOVE INCORRECT LINK... SEE POST BELOW.

Guess we will have to wait to a later date to name em all!


[This message has been edited by terry hall (edited 06-28-2002).]

[This message has been edited by terry hall (edited 06-29-2002).]

[John Harris]

OK
I give up. What is the difference between this one and your first one with the low serial number. You will have to be specific. I don't see the difference????

Help a newbie out

[terry hall]

Ok, I have deleted my original post expressing my embarrassment on not having another variation.....

Now... THANKS TO FRED.....
WE DO HAVE AN ADDITION.!!!!

C57123. (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/C57123adjleftofscrew.jpg)

Note the change to block letters to the side of the ratchet wheel and the moving of the "ADJ." markings to the left of the screw. The change after this is what I posted above as "a middle one", note the "ADJ" marking surrounds the screw.

There still could be more to come....

[John Harris]

Here is another "second signature" on EBAY it is C56566.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=944343179

[terry hall]

thanks John, noted it last night....

[rrstd]

Doesnt really count but a factory model exists marked "992B" and "Elinvar". No serial number but marked "Model".

If I remember correctly, its pictured in either the 1979 or 1980 Price Indicator by Ehrhardt.

Rhett

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[terry hall]

Yes I remember seeing that one. Is it in private hands or in museum?

[rrstd]

Museum


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[John Harris]

When did they stop putting ink in the serial number? I have noticed the ink missing on the "4th" signature models.

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NAWCC Member Number 0156136

[Lindell V. Riddle]

John,

You don't miss much!

For what it's worth, C-425406 is plain.

------------------
Lindell V. Riddle
NAWCC Life Member# 253-150074
Member Chapters 10, 28 and 37

<southbend@adelphia.net>

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Terry,

For your database (from a paper label, no watch): Hamil 992B, Model A, Dial 121, Watch #C358321, case #K365467.

Greg

[This message has been edited by Greg Frauenhoff (edited 07-19-2002).]

[terry hall]

John,
Yes, I have noticed that on the last signature movements. I don't have a reason. I think that will be one of the 'unanswered' questions. I had theorized the reason was from cleaning solutions, but why the s/n and not the rest of the movement markings?

Greg,
Thanks.... have filled in a slot with that info.

[mikem53]

Terry.. thanks for the information on the 992B. I just purchased one and your information was very helpful.

[terry hall]

Glad to be of help. Hope it all turns out well. Please update us if you wish...

[StanJS]

Well I can get em all....... almost 500,000 #'s apart.

An Early one. (http://web.infoave.net/%7Eehall/earlyc583.jpg)


A middle one. (http://web.infoave.net/%7Eehall/middlec282123.jpg)

And

A Late one. (http://web.infoave.net/%7Eehall/late.jpg)This one is C508787.



Aaarrrrrgghh! I just bought a late model 992B (C520951). I am sure it matches the late one pictured above but wanted to see it with my own eyes. Can someone (Terry?) fix the links or post the pictures again. This is a nice thread for reference.

My 992B appears to have been made about 1964. That is less than 15 years before I bought my first watch. The sucker would have been new (to me) then! Now, it's 45 years old. You know you're old when you walk into an antique store and you say, "I remember that, and those, and that...."

Cheers,
Stan

[Kent]

What dial and case came with the movement?

[StanJS]

Kent,

It is a #16 case. I posted pictures here: http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=49487&page=2

I am not a 992B collector. They made too darn many of'em. Due to a recent "surprise", I now own one and I am learning about them.

Cheers,
Stan

[Robert Sweet]

Stan,
The link below should be of some help.

Robert

http://global-horology.com/GHMB/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=241

[Kent]

Kent,

It is a #16 case. I posted pictures here: http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=49487&page=2
...
Cheers,
Stan

Thanks!

[Robert Sweet]

Stan,

What is the serial number of your case?

Robert

[terry hall]

Stan,
I wish I could restore ALL broken links... :( my isp changed the storage location... the path needs changing from an infoave address to a lexcominc address.... :(:(

But I can help here with the assistance of fine members.... :cool:

Fred Hougham furnished these images to me in 2002... I cropped them a bit...

The images show the four known movement markings... there is one caveat depending on how we define some things...

In the first movement marking variation, the earliest movements have a VERY SMALL serial number font...

Below, left to right are the four styles of signature.
Thank you Fred!!!

as always, doubleclick on them to enlarge

[StanJS]

Terry,

I thank you, as will others, for providing the pictures. As expected, my 992B matches the latest markings.

Robert,

>> What is the serial number of your case?

It looks like R974381. See below. There's also a picture of a #16 case (taken under the family room lamp).

Cheers,
Stan

[Robert Sweet]

My 992B appears to have been made about 1964. That is less than 15 years before I bought my first watch. The sucker would have been new (to me) then! Now, it's 45 years old. You know you're old when you walk into an antique store and you say, "I remember that, and those, and that...."

Cheers,
Stan

Stan,

According to research, it is my opinion that your serial number C520951 would have been made about 1968-69, somewhat later than your 1964 date.

Your dial appears to be a No. 379 Melamine which would be correct for that time frame.

The No. 16 case was introduced in the early 50's and used until the end of production for the 992B, officially 1969, (with clean-up models until 1971), so it is also (correct), but not necessarily original to your 1968-69 movement.

The first No. 16 cases had a "R" prefix serial number with the later and last ones having a "P". I have recorded a few No. 16 case numbers, but I can't nail your serial number, R974381, down to a date.

Robert

[terry hall]

I'll agree with robert on dating your watch... inasmuch as late 60's anyway

one reason is the stylized "H" in the case back.... (two sideways triangles)... this logo seems to date to the 60's IMHO....

would the case back also appear to have a 'machined flat' around the inside near the outer edges? I also feel this is a 'late' feature and though i can't confirm, i feel it was for case screw clearance.

[StanJS]

Robert & Terry,

Thanks for your detailed analysis.

I got the 1964 date estimate from pocketwatchsite.com and Shugart (which appear to come from the same source). They have 1964 ==> C520,000. I assumed they would be making more than 1,000 watches per year. I'd take your expert opinion over theirs.

I assumed (from my reading) that the watch has a DS melamine dial (given the time frame). Lucky for me, it looks to be in good shape.

The darn thing is running! I wound it a little and gave it a shake when I first received it and it wouldn't start. It looks like it needs a good cleaning.

>> would the case back also appear to have a 'machined flat' around the inside near the outer edges?

I don't think so but I may not know what I am looking for. I attached a few more pictures. Here's an example of the late model markings.

Also, note the bungs that appear to have been made from inside the back of the case. Ya gotta wonder...

Thanks,
Stan

[Robert Sweet]

Robert & Terry,

>> would the case back also appear to have a 'machined flat' around the inside near the outer edges?

I don't think so but I may not know what I am looking for. I attached a few more pictures. Here's an example of the late model markings.

Thanks,
Stan

Stan,

Below I have cropped your photo to show the "machined flat" area that Terry was referring to.

Robert

[StanJS]

Robert,

Perhaps we have a language problem...

The area to the "northwest" (outside) of your arrow point is inclined (about 45 degrees). Not flat - unless you mean flat and angled. The area immediately inside your arrow point, is flat (horizontal). Looking at the area under a magnifying glass, the finish is the same across all these areas (and appears gold and "stippled"). Thus, am I right in assuming this area would have been machined before the final finish was applied?

Confused,
Stan

[Robert Sweet]

Stan,

The area that you have marked flat is the area that was recessed to allow for more clearance between case screw head and the case back.

Robert

[terry hall]

machined flat, 'step', we are talking about the same case feature.

did not see this until the late watches, in both the 16 and 17 cases....

[StanJS]

Thanks, guys, for the info. What threw me was I thought the machined area would have a different finish. While it looks different in the picture, that is a lighting effect. The finish is consistent across the inside back of the case.

Cheers,
Stan

[C. N. Lloyd]

In regards to post 31 of this thread, the photographs of the 4 992B signatures, there are SN overlaps between the introduction of a later style plate. I will post my own sightings, and, with other 992B owners posting theirs, we may be able to get a handle of the approximate date of the plate change.

Signature 1 seen on Low SN C001, High SN C33940
Signature 2 seen on Low SN C37825, High SN C65532
Signature 3 seen on Low SN C57684, High SN C444316
Signature 4 seen on Low SN C394553, High SN C525298

Now, if anyone has a lower than low or higher than high, please post. Your attention is called to the overlaps mentioned. The next obvious question would be: why? Older plates being pushed to the back of the benches as newer ones were brought in? SNs being assigned after the fact? Let us hear from the 992B guys.

C. N. Lloyd
30 years of Pocket Watch collecting

[terry hall]

C.N. Lloyd:

Dang... some one else crazy enough to keep up with this 'stuff'...

Here are a couple of tidbits

From observations ... with help from Mike C and MANY MANY others !!!

Highest First Signature c40679

Lowest Second signature... c36931.. but no pic available
Highest Second signature... c69673

Lowest Third signature... c52578
Highest Third signature...c408357


would like to see an image of c444316...

Lowest 4th (or last) signature.... c376098 but no pic

Highest 4th (or last) signature... c525298 my friend mike c actually bought this watch in april 2007 in KY... unsure of its location now.



Enjoy! There are some that would 'kill', 'lie', and 'steal' for this info :D:D:D ha hah!

Now... why are there overlaps.... don't think we will ever actually know. it is difficult at best to attempt to contruct 'runs' of movements.

The quickly changing signature style was occurring preceeding WWII and during....

There are many 'runs' of USGOVT 992B movements in this time frame. Because of the lack of ledger records and WWII production limitations, anything would be pure speculation.

It is because of these overlaps and other factors mentioned I doubt one can come up with a firm 'date' of change.

th

[Robert Sweet]

It is because of these overlaps and other factors mentioned I doubt one can come up with a firm 'date' of change.
th

I wonder if Don D. could find "blueprints" with the signature changes!

C. N. Lloyd, Terry,

Thanks for sharing this nice info.

Robert

[C. N. Lloyd]

I cannot provide an image of C444316, it was an ebay sale of about 3 years ago. It was a very high SN for a S3 variant, and was in fact, the watch that got my mind on just when the plate changes occurred. Just one of those things in this business that one notices after a while. Of course, Hamilton is famous for variants of the same model: 6 known variants of 940, 946, 4 of 936, 944, 3 known of 938, 942, etc. And this does not include the myriad of private labels, of which I do not collect. Maybe they did it just to drive us crazy.

I heard that Rene Rondeau has C525298, but cannot confirm. It sold on ebay for $1175 not very long ago, and he supposedly was the buyer.

C. N. Lloyd,
30 years of Pocket Watch Collecting

[terry hall]

ok on the pic, understand... it is just so high and when comparing to examples closer to it the watch stands out on its own... not another 'grouping' even close... just this lone example.

'when' i get my database updated from paper entries, perhaps i will see a different pattern