Railroad watches?

[Bill Dermody]

I think there was a discussion of this on the Chapter 149 forum last year, but it caught me by surprise tonight to see a watch offered for sale by Richard Gilbert, a Hamilton 900, described as a railroad watch. Not much description, just a photo of the dial. I checked his other auctions and found others also described as "railroad watches" that obviously are not. Some were 12-size, and I don't think any 12-size watch was ever approved for railroad service, even though they may have had the requisite number of jewels, adjustments, and time-keeping ability. I'm no expert like most of you, but then neither are most people who are shopping on the web auction site for a nice old watch. Given the credentials supplied on the auction page, most would never question anything claimed by the seller. About a month ago, in regard to a similar watch, I emailed the seller and suggested a correction, but never received a reply, and the error continues, with just about every watch called a "railroad" watch. What gives?

[Bill Dermody]

I think there was a discussion of this on the Chapter 149 forum last year, but it caught me by surprise tonight to see a watch offered for sale by Richard Gilbert, a Hamilton 900, described as a railroad watch. Not much description, just a photo of the dial. I checked his other auctions and found others also described as "railroad watches" that obviously are not. Some were 12-size, and I don't think any 12-size watch was ever approved for railroad service, even though they may have had the requisite number of jewels, adjustments, and time-keeping ability. I'm no expert like most of you, but then neither are most people who are shopping on the web auction site for a nice old watch. Given the credentials supplied on the auction page, most would never question anything claimed by the seller. About a month ago, in regard to a similar watch, I emailed the seller and suggested a correction, but never received a reply, and the error continues, with just about every watch called a "railroad" watch. What gives?

[Kent]

The internet auctions are full of sellers who refer to any pocket watch as a "railroad watch." Also, the are other major dealers who have employees incorrectly describing their watches. Why pick only on Richard Gilbert?

[Bill Dermody]

I'm not trying to "pick on" Richard Gilbert, but I think accurate descriptions are important. Earlier this evening, I emailed a seller to let him know his Elgin 571 could not possibly have been manufactured in 1902. He had unknowingly ignored the "S" in the serial number. I can understand that. But when I got interested in watches 7 or 8 years ago, one of the first names I learned was Mr. Gilbert's because of his contribution to the Shugart reference. I suspect that his name, and the way it is used on the pages where his watches are listed for sale, may result in a lot of people eager to get into watch collecting to start off on the wrong foot, thinking they've bought a "railroad watch" when they have actually bought, as a few of his other offerings are, a Swiss 17 jewel timepiece that could never be defined as a railroad watch.

[terry hall]

I understand where Bill is coming from....

Has anyone paid attention to the new "Book"... Of course Richard's Ad is on the back cover and he is listed as a co-author

On the spine is an image of a Hamilton Model 17 case with an S LaRose REPLACEMENT (caps for emphasis) BOW........ and a "Script" signature Hamilton numerical dial......

Study has show this combination not to be "original" (based on factory literature).... but NOW it stands a chance to become 'gospel' because of its appearance IN THE BOOK...

Also, on page 230 is shown what I consider a non original combination..... a 992Elinvar in a Model 17 case..... Clearly at least 10 years difference between the case and movement.....

[Kent]

Bill et. al.:

My point was that the popular online auction site is rife with wrong, poor, misleading and inaccurate descriptions. I haven't seen the listing to which you're referring, was the seller Richard Gilbert the person, or Ashland, the company? If its Ashland, the company, Richard may not be aware that his employee(s) are describing the watches so badly. There's another well-known, large-scale dealer who posts here quite frequently and whose employees make mis-statements about the watches. To his credit, his company is very responsive to corrective suggestions and comments. If Richard Gilbert is aware of the mis-statements in his company's offerings and chooses not to do anything about it, well sadly, there are many sellers who do the same. Even worse, some of them brag of being NAWCC members. So, why mention only Richard?

Terry mentioned that the latest edition of The Complete Price Guide To Watches has errors in that factory-cased watches in non-original configurations with switched, or replacement, parts are prominently shown WITHOUT these anachronisms being pointed out. Yeah, well, its always been known that the book contains errors. My experience has always been that when such errors are pointed out to Cooksey Shugart (perhaps with some documentation), they're corrected in the next edition. We wish that these things wouldn't happen, but hey, they do - the authors are doing the best that they can.

Yes, I do agree that it is unfortunate that novices may be misled by inaccurate sales hype and erroneous references. On the other hand, people shouldn't be spending hundreds of dollars on watches without doing some research so as to understand what it is that they are actually buying. If some watches still get purchased that turn up to be questionable, well some mistakes are still going to be made. That's what learning is all about.

What we try to do here, on other internet sites, and (in some cases) in print, is to educate others. We try to provide accurate information so that others can make informed judgements about the watches that are being offered or discussed. One of the great things about this message board is that if one of us errs, there'll be someone else to point that out.

When all is said and done, we're not the watch police. We're just a bunch of people sharing information, hoping that it'll help others.

P.S. I think that I've seen some documentation that 12-size watches were occasionally accepted for railroad service in the 19th century. These were probably in use prior to more stringent standards and were grandfathered forward. However, I don't recall ever seeing any railroad or watch company documentation that 12-size watches were ever considered to be (railroad) standard watches.

[fkusumot]

Kent,

You say, "Why mention only Richard?"

It's obvious why people keep mentioning Richard Gilbert. Richard Gilberts name is on the front cover of "Complete price guide to WATCHES", Cooksey Shugart - Tom Engle - Richard E. Gilbert.

People keep mentioning Richard E. Gilbert's name because he is represented and represents himself as an expert.

People keep mentioning Richard E. Gilbert because he uses his name and position in his advertisements on Ebay.

The first person mentioned Richard Gilbert because an auction by Richard Gilbert, regardless of whatever flunky actually wrote it, was incorrect. The auction specifically says:

"This item is offered to you by Richard E. Gilbert, co-author of “The Complete Price Guide to Watches” and “The Complete Price Guide to Jewelry”. Buy with the confidence of knowing you are dealing with a reputable and knowledgeable dealer with over 30 years of experience. All of our items are guaranteed to be authentic and as described"

So, Richard E. Gilbert in his auction description is guaranteeing a non-railroad watch (and he should know better) to be authentic and as described, which it is not. It does not matter if he personally wrote the description or not. He is ultimately responsible for the incorrect description.

Certainly we all see things on Ebay that are incorrectly listed, or even listed with attempt to defraud. One thing we don't often see is a person like Richard Gilbert who claims to be a "Knowledgeable Dealer with over 30 years experience", who has co-authored a book that is the widely used price guide and source of information for watch collecting misrepresent his merchandise.

Best regards,

Frank Kusumoto

[Whit Joyner]

In the mid-1970s, I had the misfortune to be watching one of Merv Griffin's more fatuous TV shows, on which he was presenting a half-dozen or so very rich people (before the term "entrepreneur"). Wide-eyed with admiration, he had these people talk about how they made their big money. While I sat there, a little smug jerkoff related how he'd bought out the old Gruen Watch Co., fired all its craftsmen, and begun putting the Gruen name on the lowest quality stuff he could stamp out. Everybody at Gruen, he groused, had lived in the past, didn't know how to make money, and had to be tossed aside so he could run it right. He was so proud. Merv was awe-struck. The audience applauded.

Just a few years before, my parents had sent me off to college with what they both had heard all their lives was a fine quality watch, a Gruen. Neither of them had ever had such a watch. By golly, it was self-winding and marked waterproof. It was a Gruen!

The first time I wore this watch in a rain shower, the case filled with water that had run down my arm. The town watchmaker said it was completly ruined, and it hadn't come from the "real" Gruen Watch Co. he used to know. The warranty was for another one just like it.

So, this guy on TV sat there and bragged about how he'd put it to my parents, and to me, and wow, was he rich. I will gladly send his name to anyone who e-mails me for it. He's still out there, making lots of money.

Richard Gilbert proclaims his expertise and his honor, and implies he is a paragon of horology. He wants to trade upon his name and company, just as Dietrich Gruen once did. We're not picking on him, we just don't have time right now to name all the others. And he is the one who says that some 12 Size watch is a railroad watch.

Most of the dummies who "shouldn't be spending hundreds of dollars on watches without doing some research" wouldn't have the slightest idea where and how to start.

How about some "caveat vendor" laws?

[Kent]

Whit wrote (in part)Most of the dummies who "shouldn't be spending hundreds of dollars on watches without doing some research" wouldn't have the slightest idea where and how to start. How about some "caveat vendor" laws? Well, since Frank pointed out:The auction specifically says:
"This item is offered to you by Richard E. Gilbert, co-author of “The Complete Price Guide to Watches� and “The Complete Price Guide to Jewelry�. That'd give them some idea of where to start. “The Complete Price Guide to Watches� may have some errors, but recent editions give a pretty good idea of what a railroad watch is. Perhaps there are debatable points, but it certainly is a start.

Regarding "caveat vendor" laws, perhaps you missed last year's suggestion that sellers be asked to old ref::Stand Behind Their Watches in Writing. In reading the objections of the nay-sayers you'd think that they were being asked to do something dishonest instead of just describing their watch in writing. Good luck on obtaining "caveat vendor" laws! As for me, I'd rather spend my efforts on providing accurate references from which others may learn, at least those who want to take the trouble to learn. I think it was Ben Franklin who said "A fool and his money are soon parted." That seems to be as true today as it was 200 years ago.

[pocwatjim]

Rick,
It is good to see that you are involved in the NAWCC and are going to read some of the information on this board.

I met you in Orlando, at least I think it was you. Are you Richard's son? About 20 something?

To keep Ashland's good business name I know you are interested in anything that you can do to avoid a negative image from developing.

Please read Terry's Hall's post above. It's too late to do anything about it now but it certainly is going to create many problems down the road.

A good seller on eBay should average above 99%
Feedback rating, so you have some room for improvement. The main problem is in writing honest descriptions and the dial grading system and following the rating in the description. EX: Multiple hairlines or cracks are not a 90% rating.

If I can help you out in any way feel free to contact me.

Thanks for showing an interest.

[Dr. Jon]

Hi Rick and thanks for responding to this board.

I bought a very fine item from your Dad back when he lived in Buffalo so we go back a few years!!

I suggest a few other changes to your Ebay listings

1) By invoking authority and them making mistakes you lose credibility, as other have said

2) Your listings rarely show more than one view, the implied message is "We are the experts take or leave it". That, some obvious listing errors , and a very low feedback rating for an Ebay professional still further lower your credibility. A lot of us want to see the movement to check if the mistake might be in our favor and to assess condition for ourselves.

3) If you invoke authority based on writing the price guide your prices should either be in line with the guide or have an explanation of what makes the item special. Similarly the price guide suggests that the item be thoroughly examined and you don't provide the pictures to begin to do this.

[Jeff Hess]

I have come to Richards (and his sons) defense many times on this board.

And I have been attacked for it.

Richard is a buisnessman who loves watches. He is a collector who sells stuff too.

I have had the same problem. Not ALL employee's know EVERYTHING about a watch.

I put a Rolex up once (well, my employees did) on the big auctions site. The employee called a Rolex Chronometer a "chronograph".

I was chastised, accused, yelled at and otherwise had my reputaion besmiched on just aout every watch site in the world. "Con man" thief, idiot, were a few of the nicer things said.

We have a powerful tool here, with the internet, for research. Incredilble. More research is done on watches in one month now on the net than at three or four years of mart shows of the past.

But the said part of "the net" continues. And that is the "piling on" accusatory nature of it all.

I came to this site and to the other board (185) after being unduly attacked. I came to defend myself from these unwarranted attacks. And I have stayed and partaken and become a moderator. Now Richard (his son acutally, who I have known since he was born) are here. And why? They made a mistake. And they were ROUNDLY critisized in the most strong of manners.

Is this going to be the way we get participants?

I hope not....

Jeff Hess

[Marine]

I think there was very constructive critique provided from the "Old Dog's". As a rookie, I have learned a great deal from the comments in this thread and others. Where I think there might be potential to deviate from constructive comments, is if judegement is passed on particular motives. As an avid internet shopper, I covet my feedback standing as it is a reflection of my good name and I assume others feel the same way. Perceptions are reality so I hope the feedback off the books well well accepted for what it is worth.

[terry hall]

the post Dr Jon made above summarizes the observations of many I have spoken with....

I don't think this is 'piling on" at this junction of the conversation.

I believe this will remain civil and Rick may learn something........

[John F]

Jeff! Duck! Incoming!

Seriously, I think at the heart of this there's a common bond that we all share, which is a love of these wonderful mechanical doohickeys. How can you not like 'em, after all?

The passion we all have for these clearly runs deep, and I would like to think that this is where at least some of the over-the-top criticism comes from when things are mis-represented, mis-described, or otherwise goofed up - especially when it comes from those who are perceived as among those who should know better. Is that fair? Yeah, well, maybe -- but maybe not. There's so much misinformation thrown around, and so much of it thrown around in such a way that appears to be a deliberate attempt to deceive, that it's sometimes hard to separate the honest error from an intentionally misleading statement. When the slip-up comes from a well-respected name, well, I can see why there's some kind of reaction.

But heck, mierda happens. And this is as it always has been in the marketplace, regardless of the product. Knowledge and free discussion cures a lot of ills.

I appreciate Jeff's candor on this. We're all better for it. Looks like Richard's doing the same. Kudos to both.

I'll get off my soap box now. Yakking about watches is much more fun anyway.

[Dr. Jon]

Jeff

I am sorry if I was piling on.

I should have added that if Rick wants an example of how to post watches and list them on the net, your listings are a superb example of how to do it.

What I like are:

1) Lots of pictures

2) Clear, well reserached statements

3) Well stated opinions such as "this is the best I have seen" etc so a bidder knows this is an opinion rather a pronouncement from on high.

4) Letting your reputation and feed back speak for itself which it does, eloquently.

5) You participate on this board so we appreciate the information you share.

Yes, we understand that employees can make mistakes. If it happens on one of your listings, we can understand it because you do not invoke any special authority.

If you had stated in a listing that you are an authority you would lose the excuse that an employee made an error.