Hamilton MAINLINER

[terry hall]

Hello All....
Just wanted to throw out this because of some of the recent items I have seen for sale.

What is the consensus here? Were all Hamilton MAINLINER cases marked?

I have seen quite a few descriptions for what appears to be just a J Boss case.

The Mainliner cases I have seen and feel to be 'right' ARE marked 'Hamilton Railroad Model' in addition to the standard Keystone markings.

What I have noted is a definite difference in the shape of the rear cover.

I have to charge my batteries and upload images to show y'all. Hopefully by tomorrow.

Just wanting to clarify this 'cause .....THERE IS A DIFFERENCE .....especially when someone is mistakenly describing a case as original.

Images to follow....thanks.

[terry hall]

Hello All....
Just wanted to throw out this because of some of the recent items I have seen for sale.

What is the consensus here? Were all Hamilton MAINLINER cases marked?

I have seen quite a few descriptions for what appears to be just a J Boss case.

The Mainliner cases I have seen and feel to be 'right' ARE marked 'Hamilton Railroad Model' in addition to the standard Keystone markings.

What I have noted is a definite difference in the shape of the rear cover.

I have to charge my batteries and upload images to show y'all. Hopefully by tomorrow.

Just wanting to clarify this 'cause .....THERE IS A DIFFERENCE .....especially when someone is mistakenly describing a case as original.

Images to follow....thanks.

[Jon Hanson]

Hi Terry,

Look forward.

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator

[Larry Jones 98326]

Terry,

I'm with you, a J. Boss RR Model not marked Hamilton Railroad Model is, well, a J. Boss RR Model.

I haven't noticed a difference in the rear cover, but I haven't looked. I just went upstairs to compare, and of course I have 5 J. Boss RR Model cases here, and the Hamilton is at the bank.......

Larry

[BUZZ BAZARNICKI]

If it doesn't say Hamilton Railroad Model then it would not be a MAINLINER.....Remember,the Hamilton Watch Co. did not make cases....and in the example of the MAINLINER,when Hamilton ordered these up for production,circa 1940,they would've specified that the cases were indeed marked Hamilton Railroad Model......One thing I should throw in at this point.....In all honesty....I'm not sure that Hamilton ever used nor mentioned the name MAINLINER...I have not seen,in any of my Hamilton records or material,where The Hamilton Watch Co. actually gave/used a name or model # to define or advertise their watches....(Other than the World Famous Patented Bar-Over Crown,of course!!)........I could be mistaken though... http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/eek.gif ...I'll have to look into it further and get back at ya........

------------------
BUZZ BAZARNICKI
ANTIQUARIAN HOROLOGIST
HAMILTON SPECIALIST
MEMBER #120851 NAWCC
PAST V.P.CHAPTER # 52

[This message has been edited by BUZZ BAZARNICKI (edited 10-12-2001).]

[terry hall]

Hi all,

Larry, ditto, glad that someone else takes the same prospective.
Jon, forthcoming tonite.
Buzz,
Hamilton started the mainliner about 1937, check the 1937 catalogue. The outside box was marked mainliner with fancy graphics. I will upload these pics also.

I promise..

[Greg Frauenhoff]

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I think a word of caution about "originality" is in order. First, let me say that I agree with what has been said about the cases needing to be marked Hamilton RR Model, but only up to a point. It's no doubt true that the vast majority of the watches being discussed here were indeed marketed and sold in such marked cases (>99%?? Who knows.). However, all American Cos. eventually discontinued certain product lines at one point or another and for various reasons (and of course they all went out of business and left behind a bunch of stuff that someone had to get rid of). And when they did so I really don't think that they were too concerned (or as concerned as collectors are today) that the last such pieces on hand were sold in the "correct" case or any case at all for that matter (this applies to "correct" dials as well). Of course, I'm also fully aware that the vast majority of pieces today that have incorrect cases (and dials) did not leave the factory in such a condition (they were "switched" at some time after having left the factory). My point is that there are definitely exceptions to the "it's gotta be like this or it ain't original" line. For instance, it is known that some hunting mvts were originally cased and sold in open face cases, some old HOWARD mvts were even cased and sold in, get this, Silveroid cases, and some late model Ball-Hamilton 999B watches from "virgin" sources have turned up in non-Ball marked cases.

The subject of originality is a very important one for most collectable watches, but we should keep in mind that what is sometimes "incorrect" for a particular piece may indeed be original. This may not be true very often, but it's worth remembering (in my opinion anyway).


Greg

[Kent]

Buzz:

Let me save Terry the trouble. Here's a scan from a 1937 Hamilton Catalog (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/1st950e.jpg). Note that the 950E is being introduced in 1937. The 1936 catalog still has the compensated balance 950.

Also, here's an example of a 992B Brand New in a Non-Hamilton Case (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/canadian_std_watches.jpg). However, this is Canadian and other 992B's sold in Canada would not be likely to be in J. Boss cases.

Kent

[terry hall]

Thanks Kent! That is one of the things I was looking for.

Here is a image for a mainliner box. (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/mainlinerbox950e.jpg)


Now, my mainliner case is worn, so I appologize. It also has a 992E in it. I have no earthly idea if it is original. I did see last week in Richmond a Hamilton catalogue that showed both the 950E and 992E advertised in a mainliner case and box. I did not buy the catalogue, nor did I take a pic of it. I think it was from 1939.

Here is an image of the mainliner marking (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/mainlinermarking.jpg). This should be in a true MAINLINER case.
Here is a front view (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/mainlinerfront.jpg).
Here is a contour view (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/mainlinercontour.jpg). Here is where the difference in the cases is noted. The mainliner has a set of rings (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/backrings.jpg) that are between the reeding of the case back edge and the back. Note also the 'edge' of the back surface. My example is rounded from wear, but this surface is a sharp edge on a better case.

Note the difference of the contour (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/jbossbackcontour.jpg)of this case.
Here is the inside marking (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/jbossmarking.jpg) of a standard case.

Here is a fancy back jboss case (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/fancyback.jpg). Here is the edgeview (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/fancybackedge.jpg). Note it is rounded also.

An example with an engine turned back (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/engturned.jpg) shows the same contour.

I hope all these links work!

I also hope that this can educate some folks regarding the usage of 'mainliner' to describe a regular case. This has been done frequently. There are some sellers that will state 'mainliner style', which will still go over the uneducated buyer's head.

Greg, I certainly do respect your opinion, but when I see a watch that is described as being from 1941 in a "mainliner" case and is described as original. Then I want to see the marking in the case, because the watch was supposedly cased at the factory.
I have seen the examples of the last 992B watches from 1969 or so. They were still cased in what are known as hamilton cases,
beit stainless steel, the model 16, or 17.
I certainly would not expect one of these to be original in a model 7 ,8, mainliner, or one of the earlier cases. It seems the cases also had a timeframe of production.

I also understand what you mean by 'original', but not correct.

On another note, The hamilton cases were named in their catalogues and in the 'timkeeper' booklets they distributed. I saw another interesting item in a 1949 Hamilton catalogue last week. The tu-tome version of the Model #2 was labeled as a Model #3. This contradicts the 'known' model #3 which has the checkerboard design on the bezels. The first Model #3 was introduced in 1926.

They also named of the 'Traffic Special'[swiss movement] a Model #12.

Dang, this is like work.....gotta stop and get my breath.

i think they all work now.....after multiple edits....
geez...

[This message has been edited by terry hall (edited 10-12-2001).]

[Kent]

Hi Terry:

A number of case images didn't download for me. I got to see the Mainliner box, the Hamilton marking inside of the back of the Mainliner case and the fancy back case and that was about all. Please see if you've got them uploaded correctly.

Also, I agree with you on many points. Frist, "Mainliner style case" seems to be just another way of saying replaced with a Keystone J. Boss case - it might be an original Canadian Fortune case. Also. if its from 1930 or later, and its not Canadian, than it ought to be in a Hamilton signed case of the appropriate era.

Kent

[terry hall]

i been having an edit party....try them now.

[Larry Jones 98326]

Gents,

From the ad descriptions you've shown, the "Mainliner" term seems to have been applied to the 992E and 950E in the case under discussion, not to the case itself.....


Larry

[Jon Hanson]

Terry,

My 1937 Hamilton cat. with an original H. letter from the director of sales and price list is dated July 15, 1937.

Mainliner refers to the 950 E only; this is referred to as the Hamilton "code" as well as the case style and was priced at $72.00 in "10K Gold Filled. Yellow Only."

The 992Es are coded "Gallery" and "Gravel" and the cases described as Railroad Model N0. 2 and 10, respectively; priced at $63.90 ea. list price and subject to Keystone, plus a 2% cash discount.

The "confidential" H. PL states that the Mainliner will be available September 1st.

Hope this clarifies some of this stuff and thanks for posting the scans.

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator

[terry hall]

Jon,
Thanks for the information from the price list.
I have one of the earlier lists [1926], so I am familiar with the 'codes' you speak of. So I take it the 950E has the ordering code "mainliner". I understand.

Do you have one of the factory catalogues from 1939 or 40? This is where I 'believe' I saw the 992E reference. The page showed the 950E and the 992E side by side, both cased and boxed in the cardboard box with graphics.

Dang, I wish I would have paid up for these at the show....

[Jon Hanson]

Terry,

Add; I just located my 1938 and 1939 Factory H. catalogues-both refer to the 950E as the "Mainliner." As stated in my previous post the 992Es are AGAIN refered to as "Railroad Model No.2" (bar over crown case with fancy bezel and back-designed) and "Railroad model N. 10" (round bow and "lined" bezel and back).

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator

[Jon Hanson]

Terry,

Both of our last posts were written at the same time-BUT you are a faster typist. See my above post.

NO, the boxes showing the two "E" watches are different. I have the catalogues, the pictures, and the price lists for many of these years in my massive library-it just takes me time to dig the stuff out.

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator

[Jon Hanson]

T,

Last add; I forgot to mention that the "mainliner" listed for $72., but was advertised to the consumer for $75.00. The "Keystone" (plus the 2% cash discount) cost to the jeweler was from the $72.00 figure. So the jeweler made a few extra bucks!

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator

[terry hall]

Jon,
I got it.
I now remember the Black box with the big E on it. That is certainly what I saw. (it is time for the old eye exam!)
It be a lookin like this (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/992E_Factory_Sealed.jpg).
(thanks to Kent for the past sending of the scan)

[This message has been edited by terry hall (edited 10-13-2001).]

[Jon Hanson]

T,

Yes, I have that one also and probably the original magazine ad-if I can locate it.

I can't scan as fast and as well as you guys; plus, my computer can't handle the large, full page scans. So, I am at a disadvantage in forwarding this stuff.

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator

[terry hall]

Well, if you see my multiple edits, I am having trouble getting the links 'right'. :biggrin:

So, I guess we are on the track that the 950E cased in this case is the MAINLINER.

Is there any advertisements that show a 992E cased from the factory in this case? Or a 992B?

If not, then could this be one of the shortest lived cases in Hamilton production?

It appears the Model#2 would be possibly the longest. From 1926 to about 1950ish.

[terry hall]

This is the reason for my trying to get clarification.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1647591733

I did send the seller a link to this thread.

[Jon Hanson]

Last add, Terry, before the sack,

One of my 1938 cats. has the two boxed watches vertically with the 50E on top, pg 24 with the E. patents blurb astericked at the bottom of the page.

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator

[Jon Hanson]

NO

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator

[Jon Hanson]

T,

More tomorrow, but are you aware that there were a bunch of these cases "remade" from original dies about 20 years ago?

Notice the damage inside the back lid from a case screw?

Got to jam.

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator

[Kent]

Larry wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>From the ad descriptions you've shown, the "Mainliner" term seems to have been applied to the 992E and 950E in the case under discussion, not to the case itself.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Larry, et. al.:

I'm sorry, it was an old scan which only showed a portion of the page in order to keep the file size down. I've replaced it now. Here's the Complete 1937 Catalog Sheet (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/1st950e.jpg). As Jon says, it can now be seen that the Mainliner refers to the 950E and the 992E is offered as the Model No. 2 or the Model No. 10.

Kent

P.S. Jon - Thanks for the additional information.

[This message has been edited by Kent (edited 10-13-2001).]

[terry hall]

Jon,

The NO response was to what?

Yes, saw the mark, also saw the lever cut at the waltham position :frown:.

Note how the label is also missing from the outside box :wink:

Jam?

Yes, I 'think' they were marked 'star watch case co". Don't know for sure.
I have seen some of these.
It is my understanding they made the jboss style,the model 17, and some 18 size. A local, David Self, had some of these [and may still have them]. Did they also not make a run of solid gold cases? Educate....

This would be an interesting thread [these reproduced cases]. I was not 'in' watches at that time..too young....ha! I would certainly like to hear about them from some of the folks around when these were on the market.

[Kent]

No Sir, I don't believe it!

I just got a look at the pictures in the auction.

If Hamilton packaged the watch in that case, it wouldn't have the lever slot at 56 minutes (what you refer to as the "waltham position").

If it wasn't factory cased, it wouldn't be in the Hamilton plastic and cardboard boxes.

If the 24-hour dial is the one from the military version, the case ought to be base metal and the movement marked "U.S. Gov't."

If the 24-hour dial is for Canadian service, it ought to be in a Canadian case and not have the plastic and cardoard boxes.

******************
It may be real, and hence very unusual, but I'd want to see some kind of documentation. It is a shame that the paper (label) with the serial numbers is missing!

Kent

[terry hall]

Kent,
Thanks for the expanded image of the 1937 catalog.

Regarding this:
If it wasn't factory cased, it wouldn't be in the Hamilton plastic and cardboard boxes [HR][HR]
Can you elaborate more? Remember it is early :biggrin:. Are the statments below the quoted reference an elaboration on it?

[Larry Jones 98326]

Gents,

Thanks for staying up all night and getting this straightened out while I got my beauty sleep - God knows, I need it!

I didn't realize till this morning which watch was the topic of discussion. I had briefly looked at it a few days ago, and was fascinated by the "as new" term applied to a watch with a huge hairline, scratched and to me, obviously non-original case.....but, most impressive, is the sales price. Several other clear errors are in the listing but I'll leave well enough alone.

Caveat Emptor!

[Kent]

Regarding this:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it wasn't factory cased, it wouldn't be in the Hamilton plastic and cardboard boxes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Can you elaborate more?

**************************
Terry:

One possible reason that it isn't in a factory case (and its not a factory case because of the lever slot at 56 minutes) is that Hamilton sold the movement (along with others?) to some jobber or distributor, who then cased it, brand new, in a generic case and placed it for retail sale. If so, it wouldn't have the Hamilton boxes because it would have left the factory as only a movement.

Kent

[Tom Huber]

I am, by no means, a Hamilton expert, but I own two 992B's and have handled and observed about a dozen others. Each one was in a case that was marked Hamilton. I was unaware that Hamilton sold the 992B movement to jobbers. Also, another question? The e-bay announcemnt states that the watch was cleaned, oiled and demagnitized. With the Elinvar hairspring, why would it need to be demagnitized? Tom

[Barry G]

Gee, which of these statements don't match the others?

"AS NEW"

"does not indicate having been worn"

"is as near mint condition as is possible"

"A hairline running from the 56 seconds marker up to the red 22 hour marker of the 24 hour dial"

Feh!

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My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://barrygoldberg.net/watches.htm)



[This message has been edited by Barry G (edited 10-13-2001).]

[Jon Hanson]

Terry,

The "NO" refers to this....."Is there any advertisements that show a 992E cased from the factory in this case? Or a 992B?" at least in the early PLs I checked.

Jam=I gotta go!

The RGP were marked "Star" I believe, as well as some of the bar over crown types marked "10K gold filled."

Yes, I noticed that K just copied part of the page, BUT there are different versions of the ad. I am not able to scan the whole page-don't know how whithout a 20 min. download! :redface:

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator

[Jon Hanson]

Terry,

I just looked at the "monster" that brought 1425. on fleabay. I also got out about 30 of these cases, inc. some new old stock ones. After viewing certain characteristics of the involved cases, it is my opinion that the "case in question" is one of the replacemment cases "restruck" from original dies about 20-22 years ago.

One possible reason the sticker was removed from the box is because it would "give away" the original case's serial number.

Also, could possibly one of "the boys" with a more sophisticated computer screen check for additional screw marks? (I can't tell for sure from my lousy screen.)

Lastly, how often does one see a case in superior condition to the movement/dial? IT IS "USUALLY" THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator

[terry hall]

Thanks Jon for digging through the catacomb and comparing cases. The information on the later manufactured cases would be a good thread.

The case appears to have no other screw marks.

I never thought the item in question was legit from the first time I viewed it. Heck the serial # to me gives it away as not being from 1941!

There have been other items I have noticed over time by others with some of the same mis-descriptions of the mainliner case. I just hope to educate folks [and myself]in what the stuff should be. I know we cannot get away from all the fancy sales pitches and loud claims, but maybe they can be diminished a little at a time.

I have learned through our discussion here and the sharing of infomation. I would think now that the 992E I have is a recase, but it fills a slot in my collection goal of having an example of each of the Hamilton 16s cases. A #14 is still on the search list.

I hope that others have learned also. If any other information come around, lets hear it!

[Jon Hanson]

T,

Amother "tid bit": did you notice that H. refers to their YGF cases as "natural yellow only" in later PLs? (As oppposed to white green, etc. touted in earlier H. copies of the "Timekeeper.") I haven't had time to check the cut off date for this change.

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator

[This message has been edited by Jon Hanson (edited 10-14-2001).]

[BUZZ BAZARNICKI]

I stick by my original statement.....The Hamilton Watch Co. DID NOT make cases....nor, as it appears by the responses above,did they give a name to a case.(Model # maybe.)

Though a watch may have been "Timed & cased" at the factory,the case was manufactured elsewhere...

------------------
BUZZ BAZARNICKI
ANTIQUARIAN HOROLOGIST
HAMILTON SPECIALIST
MEMBER #120851 NAWCC
PAST V.P.CHAPTER # 52

[Jerry Freedman]

After all this, I am completely confused. Does Mainliner refer to a case style, a watch model, or is it more likely another adverising ploy? I look at my 992B and see a case that could be a "Mainliner". Inside it just says Keystone, J Boss, 10K gold filled. The usual Keysone logo is not there. The back is fancy, and is similar, but not the same as the one shown in this thread. My 992B (C156873) appears to have a gold center wheel, while the scan shown does not. What have I got, and what was Hamilton doing, trying to be all things to all buyers?

[Jon Hanson]

Jerry,

Reread the above thread.

I posted the following on 10-12-2001 23:41

"Terry,

My 1937 Hamilton cat. with an original H. letter from the director of sales and price list is dated July 15, 1937.

Mainliner refers to the 950 E only; this is referred to as the Hamilton "code" as well as the case style and was priced at $72.00 in "10K Gold Filled. Yellow Only."

The 992Es are coded "Gallery" and "Gravel" and the cases described as Railroad Model N0. 2 and 10, respectively; priced at $63.90 ea. list price and subject to Keystone, plus a 2% cash discount.

The "confidential" H. PL states that the Mainliner will be available September 1st.

Hope this clarifies some of this stuff and thanks for posting the scans."

Jon


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Jon Hanson, moderator

[terry hall]

Buzz.
Yes I agree that Hamilton did not manufacture cases. Never said they did.

Could one construe that a model number of a case could be a NAME?

Jerry, thanks for joining in.
By the description you give, you have a 992B in a JBoss case. The important thing is the marking HAMILTON RAILROAD MODEL. It also appears by The information furnished by Jon, that the 992B nor the 992E were not factory cased in what is shown in Shugart's book as a MAINLINER case. I have not seen a MAINLINER case that has a 'fancy' back. That don't mean they don't exist.

By the serial # you posted, You have about a 1946 watch. You mention a gold center wheel. Examples I have seen above about C120,000 do not have the polished gold center wheel. It has a matte finish that is gold in color.

[Robert Sweet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Larry, et. al.:

I'm sorry, it was an old scan which only showed a portion of the page in order to keep the file size down. I've replaced it now. Here's the Complete 1937 Catalog Sheet (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/1st950e.jpg). As Jon says, it can now be seen that the Mainliner refers to the 950E and the 992E is offered as the Model No. 2 or the Model No. 10.

Kent </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kent,
If you still have a copy of the "Complete 1937 Catalog Sheet" listed above, would you care to re-posting it again? The link is no longer active. This would be very much appreciated.

Robert

[Kent]

Robert, et. al.:

Here is the Complete 1937 Catalog Sheet (http://photos32.flickr.com/38946774_18f0c59a54_o.jpg) showing the Hamilton No. 950E.

[Robert Sweet]

Kent,
Thank you very much.

Robert

[Robert Sweet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The "confidential" H. PL states that the Mainliner will be available September 1st.

Jon </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jon,
Do you still have this Hamilton Price List? If so, would you care to scan it and give a link to the location?

This info would be very much appreciated.

Robert