Another Illinois question

[Greg Davis]

A friend of mine just showed me an old Illinois and wanted the usual info. I really must get a copy of American Pocket Watches, so I can answer directly. Until then, could someone look up the data for me? It's a 12S Transit, 19J, Double Roller, 3 adjustment, SN: 4015195. Any additional information (such as year of manufacture, number produced, et al) would be greatly appreciate.

- Greg

[terry hall]

Looks like 1922.
91,490 movements meeting grade 406, 19J, open face.
No mention of "transit" in data.

[Greg Davis]

That's odd... Transit is clearly stamped on the movement (coming before Illinois, even).

[terry hall]

Not to mean it does not exist, it is that there is no mention of a private label marking of 'transit' for the 12 size watches.

The book give a 16s grade 706 movement marked 'transit'.

It just never turned up in the research at the time.

[Charles Medsker]

According to Illinois Watch Book by Roy Ehrhardt, there were 300 watches in this particular run. If information is correct from other sources, these were run in groups of 10 at a time, which means that any 10 could have same name(s), such as "Transit," "Abe Lincoln," Stewart Special," etc., as long as it was from this particular run of 300 Illinois 19J Grade 406 watches. Hope this clears it up a little for you. My book shows a slash mark thru 16 and 12 marked beside it, so this could have been a mixed run in this 300 block of serial numbers. The Illinois Book also shows the "Transit" as a 16-size grade 706. Are you positive its a 12-size and not 16?



[This message has been edited by Charles Medsker (edited 04-01-2002).]

[terry hall]

Charles,
I agree with the 10 each theory.

It would also be nice to have the size confirmed, as it has been mentioned the book shows the "transit" to be a 16 size movement grade 706. It is not uncommon for the same name to be carried over to different sizes of movements.

Note
This watch is from the run preceeding the one that has the handwritten correction. [run 4014501-4015700]

It is a run of twelve hundred movements. It does not have the check mark beside of it, so Bill did not see an example from this run.

[Charles Medsker]

You are right Terry. These 62 year old eyes miss things like that. I need new glasses, or a larger magnifying glass?

[Greg Davis]

Okay, I have confirmed what I already knew... it is a 12s watch, and it does say "Transit". Does that mean anything special?

- Greg

[terry hall]

only that it is a 'private label' that has not been documented before.

Can you make a pic of it? If so email it to me and I will foreward to someone that is updating the illinois book.

[Greg Davis]

I'll try to get a reasonable picture tonight. It's in a hunter case, so I can't just lay it on a scanner can expect anything useful to happen... and my (borrowed) digital camera is a real low-end unit... but I'll do the best I can.

By the way, I forgot to mention it before, but this thing has gold (or gold plated) screws everywhere. It's a very nice looking 12s (from the rear, at any rate).

- Greg

[This message has been edited by Greg Davis (edited 04-04-2002).]

[Jerry Treiman]

The gold-plated screws and regulator were common on many of these private-label watches by Illinois.

[terry hall]

Here is a pic Greg sent of the Transit movement (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/transit.jpg)

This was the best they could do. I cropped it and changed the image a little to hopefully improve it.

Jerry, Have you documented an example like this before?

[Jerry Treiman]

I really haven't tried to record all of the private label Illinois (there are SO many), but I think I have seen a 12-size Illinois Transit before. The marking may be related to the Elgin "Transit" that Wayne has shown us (with that great two-tone damasceening). The only private-label 12-size Illinois that I have been following are the "Ariston" movements for Marshall Field & Co., some of the "Hallmark" variations, and the "Patrician" (does anyone know who that was made for?).

[Greg Davis]

My friend has asked that I do what I can to restore the appearance of this watch. I have told him that attempting to restore the functionality is really not worthwhile (it is badly rusted through due to bad plastic crystal fit and probable off-gassing), but he wants to be able to display it.

So, to the point... does anyone have a set of 12S Illinois hands (preferably blue) and a 12S Illinois dial (preferably silver tone) in good condition and suitable for use with this movement? If so, please e-mail me and let's talk.

- Greg

[Greg Davis]

For anyone interested, I have finally dones a movement scan. Here it is:

http://home.flash.net/~tryppyr/illinois.jpg

[TexasMule]

Total Noob here,

I just inherited my grandfather's pocket watch. I've been told it's an Illinois Transit circa 1922. It's a 12s (size I assume), 19j (jewels), and Adj 3P (????) Serial number 3998434.

It is Octagonal in shape and has a white gold case.

I read through this thread and have a couple questions. What does "private label" mean? Was the watch not made by Illinois? Was transit a model of watch?

Any information would be greatly appreciated. I think my grandfather must have received this watch for his high school graduation (timing is about right).

Thanks,
Bill

[Tom McIntyre]

"Private Label" refers to special marking put on a watch movement or dial at the request of the purchaser. Often these are purchases by retailers or jobbers who wanted to have distinctive markings.

The name could be a grade name or a private label depending on how it came about. We only know the answer to this by looking at many examples or finding documentary evidence.

[Jim Carroll]

In my opinion the Transit is a named watch not a private label.
Greg,
The Transit you want to know about come from a run of 1,200 movements made in 1922 which is made up of 4 variants, Illinois Watch Co. – The Master – Transit – Roosevelt. no more than 500 were Transit.
Bill,
Your Transit is also from a run of 1,200 movements up to now I have 2 variants, Illinois Watch Co. – Transit.
I have recorded 4 runs which Transits make up part of the run.

[TexasMule]

It appears my grandfather's watch was 16,761 #s before Greg's watch in question.

Made the same year, same size, same # jewels, open face (oops, just noticed he said his was a hunter case), etc.

Greg, is your transit octagonal? or more. (The watch is currently being restored and I'm doing this from memory).

I appreciate all the information provided.

As soon as I receive the watch back from the watchmaker I'll take some photos and post them.
Probably would be more helpful, i.e. 1K words etc.

[Fred Hansen]

Many of the names used on Illinois Watch Co. movements in the 3 and 4 million serial numbers were found on both 16 and 12 size movements.

Here are some that show on the 16 sizes, and it would be interesting to know which of these have 12 size companions ...

Ak-Sar-Ben
Ambassador
Aristocrat
Banker
Belmont
Birmingham Special
B&M Special
C&O Special
Capitol
Commodore Perry
Craftsman
Criterion
Darlington Special
Deluxe
Diplomat
Elbros
Elite
Federal
Forum
Fulton
Gold Medal
Great Northern Special
Hopkins
Illinois Central
Invincible
James A. Garfield
Leader
Marine Special
Market St. Special
Marvel
Mastertime
Meritime
Monarch
No. 805
No. 900
Overland Special
Paramount
Patrician
Patroon
Peerless
Penn Special
Precise
Regent
Relgis
Rockland
Roosevelt
Sachem
Stanley
Sterling
Stewart
Stewart Special
Supreme
Temprex
Texan
Texas Special
The Fifth Avenue
The Garland
The Governor
The Master
Time King
Transit
21 Special
Victor
Winner
Wolverine

... and for the most part these names are found on middle-quality 17, 19, or 21 jewel movements.

Fred

[Jim Carroll]

Fred,
I’m sure I’ve missed quite a few.


21 Special
Abe Lincoln
Admiral
Ambassador
Aristocrat
Ariston
Ariston Jr
Bunn Special
Capitol
Craftsman
Commodore Perry
Crest
Criterion
Deluxe
Dequesne
Diplomat
Elbros
Elite
Executive
Federal
Forum
Franklin
Gold Medal
Governor
Great Northern Special
Illini
Illini Extra
Illinois Central
Illinois Stewart
James A Garfield
King Special
Laclede
Leader
Marine Special
Marquis
Marquis Autocrat
Marvel
Masterpiece
Meritime
Monarch
Paramount
Patrician
Peerless
Penn Special
Precise
Railroad Dispatcher
Rajah
Relgis
Rockland
Roosevelt
Sachem
Salco
Santa Fe Special
Stanley
Sterling
Stewart Special
Sturdy
Superior
The Autocrat
The Fifth Avenue
The Garland
The Governor
The Harding
The Master
Time King
Transit
Victor
Vim
Wolverine

[terry hall]

Is the 'abe lincoln' and the bunn special not a GRADE rather than a private Label?

[Jim Carroll]

Terry,
I think we should get these points into context, a private label in my opinion is when a customer goes to a watch company and gets his name or his company name on a movement. A named movement is a name used by the watch company to sell watches.

[Tom McIntyre]

That leaves unanswered the question of when a name is a grade name as opposed to perhaps just an advertising gimmick.

If we had access to all the records we might find that all the "factory" names are really grade designations with, perhaps, subtle distinctions.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't think you can answer the question without a lot of examples or some factory documentation.

If we were talking about Waltham we would have some clear grade names and then we would have some that are not so clear that appear as names in the Waltham records but may have just been large volume private labels. The Cronometro Victoria and Supremo would be examples of the latter. On the other hand, as Kent has pointed out, given a private label specification, the factory could have taken material from almost any production grade and finished it to the private specification. It would then, in my opinion, be a unique grade even though the factory did not create it. Ball watches would be a good case in point.

[terry hall]

I agree... But these same vendors specified the 'name' used in their movements... for example, Railroad Magnet was a name on watches for Sears Watch Co, Salco was a name on a movement for Sallen Jewelry Co of Detroit, and so on... This to me would be a 'private label' for this vendor...

for instance... a "Texas Special" is indicated to be a grade 604......


Maybe I did not understand if the lists were intended to be Private Labels or Named grades? :confused:

[Kent]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If we were talking about Waltham we would have some clear grade names and then we would have some that are not so clear that appear as names in the Waltham records but may have just been large volume private labels. The Cronometro Victoria and Supremo would be examples of the latter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So does anybody know (i.e., can back up with contemporary literature) what the "Canadian Pacific Railway," and slightly lesser "Canadian Railway Time Service," (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-9/1217458/1901_Eaton_Catalog_Waltham_RR_Watches_LR2.jpg) watches are? Are they a private label grade, or an in-house, Canadian-Waltham grade? These appear in the Grey Book as runs bearing those grade names, but earlier examples seem to have been individually drawn for production runs of other grades (usually grade No. 25).

[Jim Carroll]

I imagine a quite few of the named size 12 watches were vendor watches, it would be ideal if we knew them all.
Here is a few more names.

Belmount
Ben Franklin
Interstate Chrono
Maiden America
Tanner Special
The Union Special
Trainmen’s Special