Help with info on Hamilton 973

[BillD]

I am trying to find more information on a Hamilton Watch that was passed down from my grandfather. It is a pocket watch with the second hand at the three o'clock position. It is in a gold case with my grandfathers initials engraved on the outside and
On the inside it says:
C.W.C CO.
TRADEMARK
2450961
WARRANTED
CRESENT
25 YEARS.
Then hand scribed H7528.
The back of the movement has:
Hamilton Watch Co
Lancaster, Pa.
17 Jewels
973
Double Roller
Adjusted
5 Positions
1082655
If you can help me identify any details about this nice old watch please contact me.

[BillD]

I am trying to find more information on a Hamilton Watch that was passed down from my grandfather. It is a pocket watch with the second hand at the three o'clock position. It is in a gold case with my grandfathers initials engraved on the outside and
On the inside it says:
C.W.C CO.
TRADEMARK
2450961
WARRANTED
CRESENT
25 YEARS.
Then hand scribed H7528.
The back of the movement has:
Hamilton Watch Co
Lancaster, Pa.
17 Jewels
973
Double Roller
Adjusted
5 Positions
1082655
If you can help me identify any details about this nice old watch please contact me.

[Kent]

Hi BillD:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

The Hamilton Watch Co. started up in Lancaster, PA in the middle 1890's. From the start, it positioned itself as a manufacturer of quality watches. For about 50 years, over 50% of the pocket watches it produced were the high grade necessary for use in the railroad market. At least two of its railroad grade watches were produced in quantities of more than a half of a million each over a period of decades. Production ceased in the U.S. in 1969, although the firm has continued existence as a member of the Swiss conglomerate, SMH. The book, "Time For America - Hamilton Watch 1892-1992", Don Sauers, Sutter House, Lititz, PA, 1992, has an excellent history of the company. Tom Watkins’ Hamilton Website (http://members.tripod.com/~Tom_Watkins/Hamilton/3hamfirstboarddir.html) has a bit more about Hamilton and its watches.

Yours is a nice watch! If one were to consider all jeweled watch movements as being separated into three groups; low; medium; and high grade; then this movement can be considered to be in the low end of the high grade group. In fact, its of high enough grade as to be railroad service quality. It sounds like your watch has a conversion dial so as to be used in an open-face case with the stem at the 12 o'clock position. Configured this way, it would pass railroad time service inspection.

Going by the serial number vs date table in "Hamilton Hand-Written Serial Numbers No. 1 To 824,700, by Col. George E. Townsend," by Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 2000 (Still in print, see Heart of America Press (http://www.hoapress.com)), serial number 1,082,655 was built in around 1914.

Only a small percentage of American watches (or Swiss watches for the North American market) were cased at the factories prior to the mid-1920's (even then, uncased movements were furnished to the trade at least until the 1960's). Most watch companies just made movements (the "works") in industry standard sizes. The case companies made cases in those same sizes. The practice at that time was to go to a jeweler, select the quality of the movement and then pick out the desired style and quality of case. The jeweler would then fit the movement to the case in a matter of moments.

Or, watches were sold by mail-order. Large outfits such as Sears, Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward, or T. Eaton (in Canada), would offer the movements in a variety of cases of different design and quality in their catalogs. Smaller mail-order retailers would case the watches, typically in a 20-year gold filled case and offer it only that way, with the buyer not having a choice of cases.

Your case was made by the Crescent Watch Case Co. According to "History of the American Watch Case," Warren H. Niebling, Whitmore Publishing, Philadelphia, PA, 1971 (available on loan by mail to members from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm)):

From page 48:
The Chicago Watch Case Co. started in Chicago in 1882, manufacturing gold cases, mostly 10K. Around 1885, the firm moved to Brooklyn, NY, where, after a reorganization, it was renamed as the Crescent Watch Case Co. All production was sold through the Waltham Co. agents, Robbins & Appleton. The distinctive Crescent Watch Case Co. trade mark can be seen in a old ref::1901 Crescent Ad.

In 1904 the Crescent Watch Case Co. was merged with the Philadelphia Watch Case Co., Bates and Bacon and the Keystone Watch Case Co.

From page 7:
"... After a series of mergers in 1904 the name became the Keystone Watch Case Co., Riverside, N.J."

Regardless of the company’s name, the cases continued to be stamped with the previous, well-known trade names.

Factory descriptions of your watch movement may be viewed on page 42 in the 1916 Hamilton Time Book at: www.elginwatches.org/scans/sales_catalogs/1916_hamilton_time_book/m_index.html
To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.com, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Your case is gold-filled. A large proportion of movements are housed in gold-filled cases. These cases are made of a sheet of inexpensive, "composition" metal (brass), sandwiched between two thinner sheets of gold by applying heat and pressure. This produces a heavier layer of gold than electro-plating. One process of doing this is defined by the term, "rolled gold-plate" (which is generally considered to use a thinner gold sheet, see a old ref::Discussion On The Topic). The gold sheet that becomes the inside of the case is much thinner than the gold sheet that becomes the outside of the case. Frequently, the purity of the gold used in the sheets, expressed in karats, is stamped inside the back of the case. Some case companies indicated the thickness of the outer layer of gold by using different trademarks for different thicknesses. Before federal regulations outlawed the practice, some case companies indicated the thickness of the outer layer by the number of years for which the case was warranted. Not all case companies were forthright about marking the cases or honoring the warranty (which is what gave rise to the federal regulations). Frequently, the color of the gold (imparted by the metal with which the gold is alloyed) is expressed in conjunction with the term, "gold-filled." Thus it is not uncommon to see terms such as "yellow gold-filled," "white gold-filled," "green gold-filled," and so forth, used in case descriptions.

Its a very nice heirloom.

P.S. Edited to correct link for rolled-gold-plate discussion.

[BillD]

Thanks for an informative reply which is very helpful to a novice like me. Just started researching it after having it around for years.
The initials on the back are mine as well since I was named after my grandfather. So it's special to me.

[terry hall]

Here is an image of the dial BillD is speaking of.

It is a conversion dial.... and....

It is a niceun! :wink:


http://web.InfoAve.Net/~ehall/MONTYCONVERSIONDIAL.JPG

[Kent]

Very nice dial Terry - I'm impressed!

But I'm also a little freaked out - I guess that its not a true Montgomery dial, is it? Then again, maybe it is.

[BillD]

What is a "true montgomery dial"?

[Kent]

Henry S. Montgomery was the General Watch and Clock Inspector of the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway (AT&SF) from 1896 to 1923. During the first decade of the twentieth century he patented a marginal minute dial that had three distinctive features. The patent has been lost, but the features of a true Montgomery Dial (http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/groupee_files/attachments/6/8/6/6866039174/6866039174_992_Cross_Bar_LR.jpg?ts=4263A733&key=971DF31BDE1C61375A98A864054BE87B&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fnawcc-mb.infopop.cc%2F6%2Fubb.x%2F%2Cs%2C2386079361%2Ca% 2Cga%2Cul%2C6866039174%2Cic%2CY%2F992_Cross_Bar_LR ) are known from Montgomery’s writings. First, the marginal minute numbers were all upright, as opposed to radial numbers which were used on other dial designs. Second, the five minute numbers were slightly larger than the other minute numbers. Frequently, the five minute numbers are red, whereas the remainder are black. However, its not known if this was a patented feature. Finally, the sixth hour figure is included, contained within the seconds bit. The sixth hour figure is generally unusual amongst pocket watch dials.

Although Montgomery's marginal minute dial appeared on Santa Fe Railway Clocks in 1900 (http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=9764937&size=o), it didn't seem to be used on watches until 1909-1910 (based on ads by the major watch companies advertising their availability around that time). Also. it was in 1910 that Ball launched his campaign against the Montgomery dial (and Ferguson and other dials).
A 1910 Elgin ad may be viewed online at:
elginwatches.org/scans/elgin_ads/1910/m_minute_numerical_dial.html
To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.com, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Hamilton also offered Montgomery dials, as seen in this June 1919 Ad (http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/groupee_files/attachments/8/5/0/8506088374/8506088374_jun-1919.jpg?ts=4263AB06&key=43BE2E0720540A5EB5B0B41CDAEA7B81&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fnawcc-mb.infopop.cc%2F6%2Fubb.x%2F%2Cs%2C2386079361%2Ca% 2Cga%2Cul%2C8506088374%2Cic%2CY%2Fjun-1919.jpg). Usually, Hamilton furnished these at no additional charge with the purchase of one of their railroad standard watches, the most popular being the 18-size No. 940 (http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/eaa/ephemera/A04/A0499/A0499-04-150dpi.jpeg) and the 16-Size No. 992 (http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/eaa/ephemera/A04/A0499/A0499-05-150dpi.jpeg). Probably all other watch companies offered some form of marginal minute dials, but a number of them changed one aspect or another to avoid paying royalties to Montgomery.

The following is quoted from 'Webb C. Ball vs. Henry S. Montgomery "... a species of delirium"?' by Larry Treiman, NAWCC Bulletin No. 180 (February, 1976), pp. 47-55:

Mr. Treiman discussed being in contact with Miss Ethel L. May, who had worked for H.S. Montgomery at the Santa Fe Railway Time Service Department, starting in late 1917 or early 1918. She also handled some of the duties of the Montgomery Dial Company, which had existed at that time.

She reported that:

"... the Montgomery Numerical Dial (with upright minute figures numbered from 1 to 60) had been designed primarily by Henry S. Montgomery in the early 1900's and as nearly as could be determined, a patent had been issued to him, possibly sometime in 1907 or 1908."

also,

"A true Montgomery dial must have a 6 figure, which is usually somewhat smaller than the figures for hours 1 to 5 and 7 to 12."

and,

"... the various watch manufacturers paid royalties to the dial company for the dials used on their products, and that from those royalties quarterly dividend checks were issued to the stockholders of the Montgomery Dial Company."

This is probably more than you wanted to know,

[BillD]

Kent
More info is better than less. I learn history in a more compelling way with lessons like this. All the information passed on has made me appreciate my little treasure much more than I did.
Thanks again to you all
Bill

[BillD]

Also Kent your earlier comment "But I'm also a little freaked out - I guess that its not a true Montgomery dial, is it? Then again, maybe it is." was based on what characteristics? I did go to those websites mentioned in your later article but maybe missed something.
Bill

[Kent]

Bill:

Well.....
Part of our effort was to get you to better appreciate your watch. If you print out the information and keep it with the watch, along with a history of your grandfather (and some space to add more names as the decades go by), it'll mean so much more to your descendants than just an old watch that got passed down through the family.

As mentioned above, Montgomery's patent has been lost so we can only infer his definition from his writings and from those ads that depict a Montgomery dial.

The problem is that the only dials identified in contemporary literature as Montgomery dials are like those pictured above. There are no documents that identify a similar dial with the seconds bit at the 3 o'clock position as a Montgomery dial. Nor are there any documents that identify similar dials having an inner ring of 13-24 hour figures (frequently referred to as Canadian Dials (http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=9857596&size=o)). So, we really don't know if these are true Montgomery dials or only similar, marginal minute dials (which refers to all dials numbering each minute). There's really no significant difference, only a question of correct terminology.

[sabphd]

Hi,

There has been a lot of discussion here,perhaps now a bit more. The Hamilton Company made a number of 3/4 plate models with different specifications and grades. The 972-973 models were the 16S,17J,5 position movements.The 974/975 were also 17J but adjusted to 3 positions. The 973 was a hunting model.Conversion dials were used generally as an after thought if the gold hunting case was sold and recasing was needed.After a while, hunting cases were no longer available, but open face,cases were still being made.One would have to question why you have a hunting model in an open face case? During the depression, people sold their gold cases and then recased them in non-14kt.cases. Do you know the history here?

[BillD]

My curiosity compels me to keep asking questions - sorry about that but all you guys are super helpful.

Your efforts to get me to appreciate the watch are certainly doing that. I have been printing and keeping in a folder the plethora of information acquired thanks to you all. I wish it was as easy to collect information about my grandfather.

A couple more questions if I may.
The page 42 of the 1916 Hamilton Time Book and 'sabphd' mentioned the "3/4 plate movement". What is that?

How do the sizes '16-size', '18-size' etc translate into actual physical size?

I haven't found any clear explanation of what "Adjusted 5 positions" means. Any helpful source of more info on that characteristic?

I was born after the depression so I don't have first hand experience. Know only what was passed on from family and some reading. But I can see how the style of case fits into this historical period.

By the way my watch does not run though it looks pretty clean inside. It would be even a more treasured possession if it could be restored to running condition. I have no idea how to find someone with the proper skill level and that I could trust to work on it. Most places can change batteries OK but fix a 1914 Hamilton...??? Any suggestions? I am inclined to leave it as-is rather than put it into just anyone's hands.

Again thanks for educating me and offering suggestions.

Bill

[Kent]

Bill:

There are different designs of movements. The 1916 Hamilton Time Book has a variety of designs to look at: <span class="ev_code_brown">www.elginwatches.org/scans/sales_catalogs/1916_hamilton_time_book/m_index.html</span>
<span class="ev_code_blue">To view, go to the </span><span class="ev_code_brown">Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page</span> <span class="ev_code_blue">at</span> <span class="ev_code_brown">elginwatches.com</span>, <span class="ev_code_blue">then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on </span>'Go'.

Page 18 shows the Full Plate model, Grade No. 940. The full top plate design has a plate that completely covers the gear train (watch people drop the word "gear" and just call it the train). There is a separate partial plate, or bridge, that provides access to the mainspring barrel (the cylindrical tub that holds the mainspring) This is referred to as the barrel bridge. The balance resides above the top plate.

Page 08 shows a Bridge model, Grade No. 950. In this design, there isn't a top plate, but only portions of a top plate, which are referred to as bridges, that hold the upper pivots of the train. In this design, the balance wheel is tucked in with the train, between that pillar plate (the bottom plate) and the bridges. The bridge model also has a barrel bridge.

Page 05 shows a 3/4-Plate model, Grade No. 992. Its called this because the train bridge and the barrel bridge cover three-quarters train. In this design too, the balance wheel is tucked in with the train, between that pillar plate (the bottom plate) and the train and barrel bridges.

In all three designs, the upper pivot of the balance wheel is held by a bridge call the balance cock.

Like many of our other systems of measurement, American pocket watch movement and case sizes can be traced back to an English system, one known as the Lancashire gage. In this system, the size is based upon the diameter of the watch plate to which the dial is fastened, known as the pillar plate. 0-size has a pillar plate diameter of 1-5/30" (yeah, right!). Sizes then increment by 1/30" for each count. Although there are exceptions, most pocket watches are sized to even numbers with the most common being 0, 6, 12, 16 and 18. These account for the vast majority of American-made watches. A 6-size watch has a pillar plate diameter of 1-5/30" plus 6/30", or 1-11/30". The diameter of a 16-size movement's pillar plate is 1-21/30", and an 18-size watch is one whose pillar plate diameter is 1-23/30" ( 1-5/30" plus 16/30" and 18/30" respectively). For sizes below 0-size (written x/0), the 1/30" is subtracted from the 1-5/30. Thus a 6/0-size watch has a pillar plate diameter of 29/30". This is right up there with 12 inches to a foot, 16 ounces to a pound and 32 ounces to a quart. The same people have brought us the term hundredweight, which isn’t a hundred of anything but it is equal to 8 stone. Since a stone is equal to 14 pounds, a hundredweight is equal to 112 pounds.

Adjustment
Movements that are marked to be "Adjusted" may have a variety, or combination, of features. One has to read the factory specification for any given movement grade to discover just what level of adjustment is being claimed. High grade watches built after 1905-1908 may be marked with specific adjustments. This is especially true for watches intended for use in railroad time service. The purpose of all of these features is to keep the balance wheel (the wheel that spins back and forth rapidly), as nearly as possible, oscillating at a consistent rate. The consistency of the rate of oscillation of the balance (wheel) is the timekeeping quality of the watch.

Temperature Compensated Balance (wheel)
A balance wheel that is temperature compensated has the rim made of two dissimilar metals. There are usually two arms (spokes) from the hub supporting the rim and there is a slot cut in the rim just past each arm. This forms two rim segments having one end supported by the arm and the far end free to move. As the temperature increases, lessening the power of the hairspring (the spring coiled inside of the balance wheel), the far ends of the rim segments deflect inward. As temperature decreases, the segment ends relax, moving outward, as the hairspring strength increases. The action is much like an inexpensive thermostat in the home. This movement of the rim segments changes the moment of inertia of the balance wheel, compensating for the alteration in the hairspring strength.

Adjustment to Temperature
This is sometimes referred to as adjustment to heat and cold. It requires a temperature compensated balance. The balance has pairs of screws (a 180 degrees apart) set into the rim. These give the balance mass, which sets the basic rate at which it oscillates. One pair may be the meantime screws, used to bring the rate deviation to minimum (with the regulator in its center position) after all of the other adjustments have been made. The locations of most of the pairs of screws (each pair is a 180 degrees apart) on the balance wheel rim are chosen to provide the best match of change in moment of inertia to change in hairspring strength (there are extra pairs of holes so that the screws may be moved to the best possible positions). The object is to keep the balance wheel oscillating at the same rate over the specified temperature range.

Adjustment to Position
The next level is adjustment to position. This is adjustment to maintain the same rate of balance wheel oscillation, regardless of which of the specified positions the watch is in. There are a total of six positions. Unfortunately, the number or the positions to which the watch is adjusted isn't specified for most watches built prior to 1905-1908. Typically, unspecified adjustment to position means adjustment to 3 positions, but there are a number of instances in which it means 5 positions. Adjustment to 3 positions most likely means stem up, stem at the 3 o'clock position and stem at the 9 o'clock position. Watches adjusted to 5 positions include the dial up and dial down positions. The 6th position is stem down at the 6 o'clock position. These positions are illustrated in a 1924 Illinois Ad (http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=9939069&size=o)'. Since temperature variation is usually greater than positional variation, watches marked to be adjusted to position include adjustment to temperature. A high grade Swiss watch marked to be adjusted usually implies adjustment to all positions. "All" may be 5 or 6 positions.

Some watches are marked "8 Adjustments." Depending upon the manufacturer’s specification at the moment that the watch was made, this can mean adjustment to temperature, isochronism (see below) and 6 positions. Or, it may mean adjustment to heat, cold, isochronism and 5 positions. To clear up the ambiguity, in the early 1950’s, Elgin marked its top (and only) railroad pocket watch "9 Adjustments."

Unless a watch is specifically marked as to the number of positions to which its adjusted, the only way to know that number would be to identify the grade and find the manufacturer's description of the position adjustment for that grade.

Adjustment to Isochronism
Then, there is adjustment to isochronism. This is accomplished by the design and adjustment of the hairspring (the spring coiled inside of the balance wheel). The power output of the mainspring (the spring that is wound when winding a watch) tends to decrease as it unwinds over the course of the day. This causes the balance wheel to rotate through a greater rotational angle when the mainspring is just wound and a lesser angle when the mainspring needs winding. A watch adjusted to isochronism oscillates the balance wheel at the same rate throughout the specified length of run between windings of the mainspring, regardless of how far in each direction the balance wheel rotates. This length of run is typically 30 hours for earlier watches and 42 hours for post World War I watches of better quality. However, mainsprings whose power output were nearly constant over the first 20 hours after a full winding were supplied in higher grade watches starting in the late 1920's. The need for adjustment to isochronism lessened with the application of these mainsprings.

Watches that are carried daily need to be cleaned and oiled at regular intervals. Railroad time service rules varied, but requirements for cleaning on a basis of once every year and a half were typical for railroaders at the turn of the century. By the mid-1920’s this was extended to two year intervals.

The 1897 "Sears, Roebuck and Co., Inc. Catalogue No. 104," Chicago, IL, 1897, reprinted by Chelsea House, Philadelphia, PA, 1968 had this to say on page 371:

"We Guarantee for Five Years All the movements sold by us. This does not refer to the life of the movement, but that we will for five years from date of purchase, correct free of charge any fault which may occur from defective material or workmanship. Any well made movement will run a lifetime if properly cared for.
"Remember That your watch should not run longer than one and one-half years without having the old oil cleaned off and fresh oil supplied. This must be done at the expense of the purchaser.
"The balance wheel of all modern watches makes 18,000 beats or revolutions per hour; 432,000 per day, or 157,788,000 per year. An engine or sewing machine will be oiled several times per day, but we have known people to carry a watch for ten years without having it cleaned or fresh oil applied.
"Usually, a movement thus treated is of no value, being entirely worn out. Take good care of your watch if you wish it to perform its duty properly, for it is a very delicate machine. Our charge for cleaning and oiling is 75 cents. The regular retail price is $1.50."

Watch cleaning and oiling costs a bit more today than it did a hundred years ago. Check out What You Need To Know About Watch Repair at Wayne Schlitt's Elgin Website:
<span class="ev_code_brown">www.midwestcs.com/elgin/help/watch_repair.html</span>
<span class="ev_code_blue">To view, go to the </span><span class="ev_code_brown">Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page</span> <span class="ev_code_blue">at</span> <span class="ev_code_brown">elginwatches.com</span>, <span class="ev_code_blue">then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on </span>'Go'.

Also, Ed Ueberall, of The Escapement (http://members.aol.com/stdwatch) has put together some notes on the Use And Care of Your Vintage Watch (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/carefeed.txt) that should be helpful.

Around about now it ought to be sinking in that your family watch, with its unusual conversion dial(at least I think that is what you have - if it looks like the one that my friend Terry posted a picture of) and open-face case, is set up for railroad time service and certainly would have been accepted for such back when all railroads maintained time service rules and regulations. You should be wondering what this is all about. To learn more about railroad time service and railroad standard watches, see "Just What Is A Railroad Watch?" On the Pocket Horology, NAWCC Chapter 174 Website (http://www.pockethorology.org/).

That should keep you busy for awhile,

[BillD]

WOW! Kent you are dynamite. A walking encyclopedia. I just glanced at it briefly and know it needs more concentrated focus to digest what I can from it. And likely it will raise more questions. If someone had asked me if watches were interesting I'd have had to say NO! They're for telling time. Not incorrect in that they are for telling time but also very interesting in their own rite. Rest assured I'll be back to you on this.
Bill

[Tom McIntyre]

Kent,

How would the patent have been lost?

Montgomery has a design patent for a marginal minute dial 54,950 dated in April 20th, 1920 but the drawing does not look like the standard Montgomery dial.

How did the earlier patent get lost? Did the Patent Office misplace it?

[Kent]

I dunno Tom.

Its generally referred to as the 1906 Montgomery patent but nobody has been able to turn up a copy. There's some evidence that it did exist in the old ref::1910 Elgin Ad whose link is listed above refers to the dial as the "New Minute Numerial Dial (Montgomery Patent)." And, Larry Treiman quoted Miss Ethel L. May, who had worked for H.S. Montgomery at the Santa Fe Railway Time Service Department, starting in late 1917 or early 1918 when she reported receiving royality checks for the dial. The 1920 patented dial is generally referred to as the Type II Montgomery dial. I don't think that the type II dial was as popular as the Ferguson dial - there wouldn't have been many royalty payments there.

More power to ya if you can find it!

[Don Dahlberg]

This from Hamilton records written by Lowell Halligan in the 1940s about their history:

"The 'Montgomery' or 'Numerical' dials have always been popular with Railroad men. This dial was patented by H. S. Montgomery, Topeka, Kans. and featured the 60-minute numerals on the margin of the dial. We paid a royalty to Mr. Montgomery for a number of years and an additional charge was made when the dial was fitted on the lower grades. "

Later it says "The 'Montgomery' or 'Numerical' feature was not allowed on watches submitted for inspection on any of the Railroads controlled by the Ball Time Service - this restriction limited the sale of these dials."

On the subject of positions:
"Six seconds between dial and cock is maximum [that is, dial up and dial down]
Ten seconds over all - five positions
Three to six seconds daily variation - gaining rate
950 - three seconds, temperature
992 - six seconds , temperature."

These are for the 992 and 950. I have given the standards for the 992B and 950B before. They were actually less stringent.

Don

[BillD]

Thinking it would be nice to at least check into having the watch restored to working condition I took the watch to a local repair shop. Mind you, when you (actually ME), don't know enough about something to carry on a credible conversation you're at risk of being taken advantage of. With this watch I do feel vulnerable. Who caan I trust?

I did take it to a local repair shop to have them give me an estimate for repair (kind of to test the waters). If you have an opinion about what happened please feel free to comment.

Their assessment after looking at it for two minutes was that it has a 'broken balance staff' and repair would require fabricating a new part since factory parts are no longer available. It would cost around $350 - more if the main spring needs to be replaced. He also said it would take one full day of labor.

I know you can't really offer much of an opinion as to the validity of their diagnosis without seeing it yourself, but since I'm trying to find a trustworthy craftsman, does the above sound reasonable to you based on the limited information above? What else should I be asking or doing when I when I take it in?

[Jon Hanson]

350 is insanity!

[Kent]

Bill:

You might consider The Escapement
http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/escapement_logo_sm.jpg (http://members.aol.com/stdwatch)
Click for info.

Also, Check out What You Need To Know About Watch Repair at Wayne Schlitt's Elgin Website:
<span class="ev_code_brown">www.midwestcs.com/elgin/help/watch_repair.html</span>
<span class="ev_code_blue">To view, go to the </span><span class="ev_code_brown">Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page</span> <span class="ev_code_blue">at</span> <span class="ev_code_brown">elginwatches.com</span>, <span class="ev_code_blue">then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on </span>'Go'.

[Steven Mercer]

Bill

To give you some options of repairmen, here are a few more links.

Members of Chapter 149 (http://www.nawcc-ch-149.web-horologists.com/repair.html). I can personally vouch for Harvey Mintz. He has worked on a number of my watches and has given excellent service and is quite reasonable.

Also, here is a list of NAWCC Members Links (http://www.nawcc.org/headquarters/memlinks.htm) from the NAWCC main page. You might be able to find somebody close to you.

And, there is the American Watchmakers-Clockmakers Institute (http://www.awi-net.org/). They have a referral directory on their web site.

If you let us know what area you are in, one of the members that post to this board might be able to recommend somebody in your area.

[Jon Hanson]

Mike Kenley also:

mkenley1@hotmail.com