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View Full Version : "Made in West Germany vs.Made in Germany"



Rod
03-28-2002, 04:15 AM
More than just a few times I have found a 400 day clock in an antique shop that I know is from the 50`s or 60`s that has "Made in Germany" not "West Germany" marked on the dial or on the back plate.I then am told by the dealer that the clock "has to be pre-ww2 because of the marking" I would like a short,if possible,explanation of why a post ww-2 clock is not always marked with the "Made in West Germany",

I would just like to win that argument once and a while.

Rod

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NAWCC # 0058915

Rod
03-28-2002, 04:15 AM
More than just a few times I have found a 400 day clock in an antique shop that I know is from the 50`s or 60`s that has "Made in Germany" not "West Germany" marked on the dial or on the back plate.I then am told by the dealer that the clock "has to be pre-ww2 because of the marking" I would like a short,if possible,explanation of why a post ww-2 clock is not always marked with the "Made in West Germany",

I would just like to win that argument once and a while.

Rod

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NAWCC # 0058915

Gary Sleater
03-29-2002, 04:55 AM
This clock definitely ha leveling feet so I presume its post WWII.

John Hubby
03-29-2002, 09:50 AM
Rod, I researched the question and wrote an article a while back that was published in our Chapter #168 journal The Torsion Times. Long story short, there was only ONE maker of 400-Day clocks who routinely stamped "Made in West Germany" on their clocks made after WWII (Kieninger & Obergfell, aka Kundo), and did so from 1950 to about 1975. Further, there was no legal or customs requirement to use "Made in West Germany" on anything, although there WAS (and still is) a requirement to stamp the country of origin on imported goods to the U.S. and many other countries.

We don't know the reason why Kundo did that, since it was not a customs requirement and with only one known exception NONE of the other German makers did that on their clocks made after WWII. That includes Aug. Schatz, Kern & Söhne, J. Link & Co, U. Herr, M. Reiner, U. Neueck, Georg Würthner, Edgar Henn, Sigfried Haller, Konrad Mauch, Franz Hermle. The exception was Schatz, who "did" stamp "Made in West Germany" on one model which they made for the H. Coehler Co., but not on any other clocks they made.

One thing that will cause some confusion on this is that Kundo made a LOT of clocks for traders and put their names on them, including the Cuckoo Clock Co, Forestville Clock Co, Fred J. Koch, Euramca Trading Co, DeBruce Watch Co, H. Coehler Co, Perfecta Watch Co, P.R. Myers & Co, Rensie Watch Co, Royce Watch Co, J. L. Hudson Co, and Welby Corporation. All of those made by Kundo between 1950 and 1975 will be stamped "Made in West Germany", but there are also many that were made for some of these same traders by other makers which were stamped only with "Germany" or "Made in Germany".

In summary . . it was NOT a requirement to stamp "Made in West Germany" on anything after WWII, although there were a lot of companies who did for other types of goods such as small home appliances. It WAS a requirement (and still is) that the country of origin be stamped on imported goods to the U.S. and to most other countries.

Hope this will help you win your argument!

John Hubby, Secretary
The International 400-Day Clock Chapter #168

Rod
03-29-2002, 01:46 PM
Thank you John,that was the info that I was looking for.............

Rod

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NAWCC # 0058915

John Hubby
04-06-2002, 03:42 PM
Sam . . hope your comments don't expand into an urban legend. Customs law IS that all new manufactured goods imported into the U.S. be marked with country of origin, regardless of whether we recognize the government or not. Many instances of special import licenses granted for import of goods from non-recognized countries but still have to state country of origin. Further, the packaging of consumables and other non-manufactured goods must be marked with country of origin, and the ship's manifest so marked in the case of bulk products.

Where things get fuzzy is when, say, Mexico imports car parts from wherever, assembles the car, and it comes in "made in Mexico".

John Hubby, Secretary
The International 400-Day Clock Chapter #168

John Hubby
04-07-2002, 01:57 PM
Sam, you are correct with regard to older clocks (and in some instances for current goods) when the intended sale destination was to some country that doesn't require country of origin. However, especially after the fall of the Berlin wall and the opening of China, any country that operates under GATT rules (that's now about 95% of them) are required to show country of origin.

Going back, the first "general" agreement regarding country of origin was made in 1891 and included most european countries plus the U.S. and a few others. That was when words such as "Germany", "England", "France" started showing up routinely on many clocks. These indications were actually used earlier than that by some makers so you can't categorically classify clocks by this. Although the 1891 agreement required the country to be stamped on imported clocks to the countries who were parties to the agreement, there were still many exported to other countries so we find numerous examples with no indication of where they came from. England required the words "Made in" added starting in the early 1900's, and then the words "Foreign Made" during a short period after WWI.

The words "Made in Germany", or "Made in England", etc, on a more universal basis started being applied in 1913 as a result of a major U.S. tariff law revision, which is the same act that still applies (much amended but still the same basic statute).

As far as publishing data for the early clocks, I'm continuing to work on that and releasing stuff when I am satisfied I have a good "fix" on the dates. It's slow going, but am now releasing a list for Grivolas clocks and will be publishing my updated Gustav Becker list before the middle of the year.

John Hubby, Secretary
The International 400-Day Clock Chapter #168

celticprince59
11-30-2007, 01:55 AM
Morning John,
Where could I obtain a copy of the article that you wrote for the Torsion Times. I do not think there is a Chapter of the NAWCC in South Africa.

Regards
Andy




Rod, I researched the question and wrote an article a while back that was published in our Chapter #168 journal The Torsion Times. Long story short, there was only ONE maker of 400-Day clocks who routinely stamped "Made in West Germany" on their clocks made after WWII (Kieninger & Obergfell, aka Kundo), and did so from 1950 to about 1975. Further, there was no legal or customs requirement to use "Made in West Germany" on anything, although there WAS (and still is) a requirement to stamp the country of origin on imported goods to the U.S. and many other countries.

We don't know the reason why Kundo did that, since it was not a customs requirement and with only one known exception NONE of the other German makers did that on their clocks made after WWII. That includes Aug. Schatz, Kern & Söhne, J. Link & Co, U. Herr, M. Reiner, U. Neueck, Georg Würthner, Edgar Henn, Sigfried Haller, Konrad Mauch, Franz Hermle. The exception was Schatz, who "did" stamp "Made in West Germany" on one model which they made for the H. Coehler Co., but not on any other clocks they made.

One thing that will cause some confusion on this is that Kundo made a LOT of clocks for traders and put their names on them, including the Cuckoo Clock Co, Forestville Clock Co, Fred J. Koch, Euramca Trading Co, DeBruce Watch Co, H. Coehler Co, Perfecta Watch Co, P.R. Myers & Co, Rensie Watch Co, Royce Watch Co, J. L. Hudson Co, and Welby Corporation. All of those made by Kundo between 1950 and 1975 will be stamped "Made in West Germany", but there are also many that were made for some of these same traders by other makers which were stamped only with "Germany" or "Made in Germany".

In summary . . it was NOT a requirement to stamp "Made in West Germany" on anything after WWII, although there were a lot of companies who did for other types of goods such as small home appliances. It WAS a requirement (and still is) that the country of origin be stamped on imported goods to the U.S. and to most other countries.

Hope this will help you win your argument!

John Hubby, Secretary
The International 400-Day Clock Chapter #168

bangster
11-30-2007, 11:56 AM
Who is Sam? :?|

burnz
11-30-2007, 01:09 PM
Bang
I was wondering that also!

kirxklox
11-30-2007, 01:09 PM
Me. All my posts from 2002-03 have disappeared from the NAWCC MB.

The NAWCC can delete anyones posts enmasse when they desire to without any excuses.

dutch
11-30-2007, 02:36 PM
Sam,

Judging from your picture we could be twins,

Dutch