Export Hammies

[John F]

I have seen Hamiltons with "Made in U.S.A." on the barrel bridge -- such as those pictured below -- sometimes referred to as an "Export Model." Is this correct, that these were intended to be shipped outside of the US for sale? And if so, should all movements that are marked this way be considered "export models"? (I am talking about only those with the full "Made in U.S.A." marking, not those that state simply "U.S.A." such as the one pictured in the lower right corner). Thanks for the help!
http://static.flickr.com/87/256500575_04e2c5ef2f.jpg

[John F]

I have seen Hamiltons with "Made in U.S.A." on the barrel bridge -- such as those pictured below -- sometimes referred to as an "Export Model." Is this correct, that these were intended to be shipped outside of the US for sale? And if so, should all movements that are marked this way be considered "export models"? (I am talking about only those with the full "Made in U.S.A." marking, not those that state simply "U.S.A." such as the one pictured in the lower right corner). Thanks for the help!
http://static.flickr.com/87/256500575_04e2c5ef2f.jpg

[pocwatjim]

John,
To answer your question better, what printed document or who is referring to them as export models?

They made many 992's and 992 B for export to Canada. Canadian law restricted imports to movements only,so they had to cased in Canadian cases.

[terry hall]

From my observations....

This marking shows up in a serial number range for most grades, indicating a time frame for this marking instead of intent of export...

The 992B shown is an exception... All I believe are marked in this fashion.

The 992 grade did not have this marking until post WWI production... and appears to be discontinured "around" serial number 2370xxx

I have only seen this marking on grade 940 in some of the very last runs...

what are the serial numbers of the grades you picture above? Do they fit into a time frame of 1918 to 1926?


.

[John F]

Thanks. Oldwatch describes a 924 (SN 1,445,485) as an "export model" here (http://www.oldwatch.com/hamilton.html). Tha date range for what I have noted is the early to mid-20's, as follows:

1,556,851 (993)
1,655,192 (974)
1,717,396 (956)
1,719,257 (992)

[terry hall]

I would like to know their source of information....


If you note your examples fall in the time period I mention above.... using hamilton info, not a web site's info.....

In the instance of the grade 992, i have researced them to know there are examples before and after a specific serial number range without this marking

The grade 940 is also like this, but as this model was being discontinued in the twenties, the examples seen are much less in number.

The grade 974 is not a grade that interests me that much in research...

.

[Fred Hansen]

Seems to me like this might be a good place to gather and note serial numbers on these markings ...

:smile:

Fred

[pocwatjim]

John,
I have collected Hamilton's for many years and have read all of the factory information that I could locate and have never run across any mention of a "export model".

The problem with mass media, (Internet) is anyone can state anything and it gets world wide attention.

Along the same lines, why do people get taken advantage of in buying and selling?

Education is always the key and even then it's difficult.

[terry hall]

Correct Jim, Education is the Key... freedom of sharing of knowledge and opinions is a bonus of nawcc fellowship... when members are not constrained ...



For Grade 992....

For a starting point..
Highest serial number NOT marked MIUSA 1620735
Lowest Serial number MARKED MIUSA 1621080



For the ending point...

Highest serial number MARKED MIUSA 2369556
Lowest serial number NOT marked MIUSA 2371710

I may have other examples in notes that have not been entered into database.... but this is what I have for now...

I would have more info but did not start recording this feature until the data was established.... what is posted above are examples I have noted this feature.



.

[Don Dahlberg]

I have never read anything about an export model and I have read most of the original Hamilton material at the NAWCC Library and Research Center. There is also no comment on the MIUSA labels that I remember reading.

I am also confused about Canada not allowing cased watches. We have sever Hamilton Canadian price lists. In 1921 they were selling the 920, 900, 914 and 910 models in cases.

In 1937 the 992 was being sold in Canada in both the #2 and #10 cases and the 950 was being sold in the Mainliner case. The 921 was being sold in several cases.

In 1941 the 992 was being sold in the #2,10 and 11 case, while the 950 was being sold in Canada in the model A case. The 917 and 921 grades were being sold in a large number of cases.

When is this Canadian restriction supposed to have existed?

Don

[pocwatjim]

Don,
After reading your post and thinking about it more, I realize that the Canadian case requirement was not a government law. It was most likely the Canadian Pacific Railroad requirement.

Kent Singer or Ed Ueberall would be able to elaborate on this.

The watches you mentioned were mostly 12 size and probably not Railroad approved.

The Canadian cased watches were after the war and only encompassed the 992 B model.

I agree that Hamilton never had anything printed in their literature about an EXPORT MODEL.

[Kent]

Ed and I have been wondering about the "Made In U.S.A." marking for awhile now. Over the last year or so we've collected the following serial numbers in our data base that have the marking. They are 992s, unless noted otherwise.

1368051
1369885 - 996
1440526 - 940
1526240 - 996
1526366 - 996
1545751 - 996 - <span class="ev_code_red">974</span>
1570864 - 972
1613435 - 996
1631181
1632184
1632260
1633017 - 974
1635715
1642789
1692280
1703521
1708333
1711000
1715082
1716433
1716855
1719607
1720728
1724831
1727015
1731717
1735880
1742179
1742278
1745668
1746720
1749811
2303026
2305056
2305153
2306677
2307478
2308569
2309195
2321210
2322057 - 974
2330274
2332143
2344262
2344455
2345523
2360261
2360399
2363328
2369638
2376070
2394957 - <span class="ev_code_red">974</span>
2497384

Edited to show corrections, in <span class="ev_code_red">Red</span>, see below.

[Kent]

Jim:

Regarding the Canadian case issue, I'm not aware of any actual requirement or law that necessitates a movement being in a Canadian-made case.

Having said that, I notice that the Canadians were (and probably still are) proud of their domestic industry and would prefer as much domestic content as possible in their products.

Furthermore, there was less duty on an uncased movement coming in to the country (even if accompanied by a matching case - as told to me by Peter Kushnir - a CP Time Service Official) than on a complete watch.

[pocwatjim]

Kent,

Thanks for your expertise on this discussion.

My question is why do you only see 992B's with 24 Hr. Canadian dials and in Canadian cases?

I just assumed that the Canadian Railway system required this after the war.

[Tom Huber]

Could there have been a US Gov policy that came out stating that all things made in USA be marked as such. I was looking at several Ingersolls that I have. One from 1905 is not marked made in USA, but any from around 1920 on are. I also did a cursory check of some Illinois watches. The same thing seems to apply. Those before around 1920 were not marked, and those after were marked Springfield, USA.

Tom

[Kent]

Jim:

In the conversation that I had with Peter Kushnir, he described receiving a shippment of Hamilton movements, with their cases separate, but in the same package. For customs purposes, the shippment was listed as "watch parts."

Regarding the dials, I see no reason why 24-hour Canadian dials couldn't have put on the movements before they left Lancaster.

Hopefully, some of our friends up north can clear this up.

[Kent]

One of the readers called the following to my attention.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- 1,545,751 you've listed as grade 996, but in what I have (Finishing Records, published Ham. lists) show it as a Gr 974.
- 2,394,957 listed as 992, but the other sources show gr 974. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I went back and checked our data base for these two watches. Both were recorded off of eBay in the Spring of 2004. As is always possible, the source could have been listed wrong. Or, I might have entered the data wrong (its more likely that I would have entered these particular watches than Ed).

[crsides]

I checked 8 992's and the only one marked MIUSA is

2367886

one on ebay so marked
2361608

Charlie

[Fred Hansen]

1443260 - Grade 924 signed "Made in U.S.A."

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

1444948 - Grade 940 signed "Made in U.S.A."

Fred

[Kent]

Thanks Fred!

I'm still interested in collecting serial numbers/grades of movements having these markings.

[terry hall]

1444829 miusa
1440132 miusa
1440021 NO miusa
1447149 miusa
1447233 miusa... my watch.

[terry hall]

992 examples.. too many to list :?|

[Kent]

Thanks Terry!

[Joe Kendall]

1694329 MIUSA 956 on ebay

Joe

[Fred Hansen]

1647324 - Grade 972 signed "Made in U.S.A."

Fred

[Kent]

Thanks Fred!

[IMHO]

1,556,204 grade 993 marked "Made in U.S.A."

[Kent]

And thanks again!

[IMHO]

1,656,984 grade 974 marked "Made in U.S.A."

[IMHO]

3,253,470 grade 912 marked Made in USA

[Joe Kendall]

1704578 grade 956 marked Made in U.S.A.

[Jeff Hess]

C376828 992b made for mexican market I guess. Funky case is "low end" and is original (owner said it was and case screws match up). Plain jane dial.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230182694483

[Jeff Hess]

C376828 992b made for mexican market I guess. Funky case is "low end" and is original (owner said it was and case screws match up). Plain jane dial.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230182694483

sold recently on "the fleabay"

[Joe Kendall]

1682543 grade 956 marked Made in U.S.A.

Joe

[Joe Kendall]

1694901 grade 956 marked Made in U.S.A.

Joe

[Bryan Eyring]

1639948 Marked MADE IN U.S.A

this watch alo has a 24hr Montgomery dial

Regards,
Bryan