Frodsham inquiry

[Robert T. Raucher]

Hello...I made an ebay purchase of item # 1704082471. What does the term "freesprung" mean? Is this movement a "True Chronometer" or something else? Please explain. Also says on the movement "84 Strand" "London" Movement # 01405 Did Charles Frodsham place the letters A D fmaz on his timepieces for a reason (movement & Dial on this item)? What year would this item have been produced? Any and all answers off or on line would be appreciated. My email rraucher@maxinet.com Thanks. Robert T. Raucher Chico, Calif.

[Robert T. Raucher]

Hello...I made an ebay purchase of item # 1704082471. What does the term "freesprung" mean? Is this movement a "True Chronometer" or something else? Please explain. Also says on the movement "84 Strand" "London" Movement # 01405 Did Charles Frodsham place the letters A D fmaz on his timepieces for a reason (movement & Dial on this item)? What year would this item have been produced? Any and all answers off or on line would be appreciated. My email rraucher@maxinet.com Thanks. Robert T. Raucher Chico, Calif.

[Steve Maddox]

Robert,

From what I recall, Frodsham used the letters of his name (plus a "Z" and something else) to make date codes. The code goes like this: F=1, R=2, O=3, D=4, S=5, H=6, A=7, M=8, and Z=9; I can't remember what letter was used for "0," but in your case, it doesn't matter. The "AD" means "anno Domini," Latin for "in the year of our Lord," and "FMAZ" is the date code for the year 1879.

The term "free sprung" means that the piece does not have a "F-S" regulator, like most conventional movements with balance wheels do. Instead, the only means of regulating the piece is by manipulation of the regulating screws on the balance wheel. It's said that freesprung movements have superior timekeeping qualities to those with regulators, but I think that's really rather subjective. The one thing that it does insure is that the pinning point of the spring is never changed, but in a horizontal chronometer, I doubt that's an important consideration anyway. Basically, I think it's more of a "pleasantry" than anything else.

The item description of this piece indicates that it has a "lever escapement," which many would argue prevents it from being a "true chronometer." Many "purists" would claim that in order to be a "true chronometer," such a piece would have to have a "spring detent" escapement. In this particular case, I'm not sure it doesn't have a spring detent, and that the seller may not realize what he's looking at. It doesn't look like a regular lever escapement configuration, but the pictures aren't really good enough to tell for sure.

I hope this helps, and that someone else will be able to remember the rest of the Frodsham "code!" (Could it have been "X=0," I just can't recall!)


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Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

[Jeff Hess]

Man. We need one of the English blokes to set us straight on here. Having spent many many cold dark mornings running the markets of Bemondsey square and Portobello road looking for watches, my only frame of reference is what the Brits have told me. I have always read that the "Date stamp" was actually a calibre designation. That is, FMSZ (1850) was a designation they put on ALL 3/4 plate high grade watches manufactured well AFTER the 1851 exhibition the 1850 model was introduced. Having owned some splendid Frodshams this is an intriguing question.

[John Cote]

Nice Movement!

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JohnCote
President, Indiana Chapter 18 - NAWCC
Member Chapter 149 (Member #105)
http://www.interstatetime.com

[Ralph]

Mercer's book on Frodsham feels the 'Z' is used for zero....and states that 1850 is the year he started making his new high quality watches.

Ralph

[Robert T. Raucher]

Hi and thanks for all the posts thus far. they do shed some light. Question...How do you safely ship this item with the "freesprung" balance wheel kept in place? Can it be done? The Hamilton M-22 Gimballed Chronometer (Navy Bureau of Ships) and the flat large Hamilton M-22 Pocket Chronometer had a flat horozontal balance spring at the balance as opposed to a Detent escapement. They also have a "regulator" for setting the speed of the timepiece (as opposed to Balance screws on the balance wheel). Where they NOT a "true" Chronometer? What are my optiond of recasing this wonderful timepiece? And is this a "significant" piece of Horology by a significant Watchmaker make it worthwhile? Any input appreciated. Robert Chico, Calif. email rraucher@maxinet.com

[Jeff Hess]

Ralph..

Good point of reference!!! Mercer also points out that many of "Frodhsams" watches were in fact made by Nicole Nielson! (I think Nielson made a lot of "Dents" too..)

I have checked some auction catalogues and can only guess that the 1850 date was simply a celebratory date of somekind as he put this on his watches with hallmarks throughout the late 1800's and into the 1900's.. Jeff Hess

Can't wait until some Brit gets on here and kicks our collective ignorant butts on this subject...fascinating...

[Steve Maddox]

Robert,

I believe the Hamiltons you're thinking about about are the models 22 and 36, which many would consider to be more akin to "deck watches" than true chronometers. The model 21 was Hamilton's "true chronometer," and these have fusees, as well as spring detent escapements and helical hairsprings. They're also very large -- about 85 size.

It's entirely possible that "Z" was the letter code for "0 (zero)" and something else was for "9," but I don't think so. When I have more time, I'll try to look this up just to be sure. I know I've read it somewhere, but I have no idea where.

As for shipping it, I wouldn't worry about the free-sprung part causing any unusual problem. As long as it's packed VERY WELL, you shouldn't have any problem.

SM

[Ralph]

Mercer's Frodsham book also acknowledges a Fmss, but claims it is the only non-Fmsz that has come to light up to that time....1981. I think Robert is going to find Fmsz on his movement, when he gets it. I couldn't tell. looking at the pix in the ad.

Ralph

[Robert T. Raucher]

Thanks for "catching" that. I stand corrected. It reads on th dial and movement AD fnsz Robert T. Raucher Chico, Calif email rraucher@maxinet.com

[Robert T. Raucher]

My fingers are jumping again...Dial & Movement reads AD fmsz Robert.