INFO ON SOUTH BEND GRADE 344

[DEVILDOG76]

:smile:
Hi fellow collectors,

I just bought a south bend, 18s, model 2, 17j, pendant wind/LS, marked grade 344, adj. to 3 position in a 14k hunters case and trying to find out more info on the watch beside just the guide book details. Would this watch have been railroad grade and approved at the time when it was made? What did this watch cost new when first produced? Does anyone have any old factory ads on this watch or where I can see some of the ads? This watch looks like the "the studabaker" model and was this watch a protype or up graded reversion to "the studabaker"? Any info will be greatly helpful. It looks like this watch was made for only one year I think? Thanks for the info and have a nice day.

Sincerely, Don

[DEVILDOG76]

:smile:
Hi fellow collectors,

I just bought a south bend, 18s, model 2, 17j, pendant wind/LS, marked grade 344, adj. to 3 position in a 14k hunters case and trying to find out more info on the watch beside just the guide book details. Would this watch have been railroad grade and approved at the time when it was made? What did this watch cost new when first produced? Does anyone have any old factory ads on this watch or where I can see some of the ads? This watch looks like the "the studabaker" model and was this watch a protype or up graded reversion to "the studabaker"? Any info will be greatly helpful. It looks like this watch was made for only one year I think? Thanks for the info and have a nice day.

Sincerely, Don

[Kent]

Don:

Congratulations on finding a nice watch! According to information in "The South Bend Watch Co. - South Bend, Indiana - A Complete Listing of Serial / Grade Numbers from Beginning to End, Lyle & Donna Stratton, Longmont, CO, 1999, there were only three runs totaling one thousand of the grade No. 344 made. The runs have adjacent serial numbers:

524,001 - 524,300
524,301 - 524,800
524,801 - 525,000

According to the above mentioned book, these were built in about 1908, although I wouldn't be surprised if production of these didn't span a number of years.

As mentioned in your Ball watch thread: "If built after 1906-1908, watches adjusted to less than five positions were not usually considered to be railroad watches."

The 18-size, 21-jewel, hunting-case "The Studebaker" grade No. 328 is the same model 2 as the No. 344, but it wouldn't be correct to believe that the No. 344 was a prototype for that watch. Simply, both were built from the same basic design, a design that was the basis for a number of 18-size South Bend grades.

A 1911 catalog reprint describing the grade No. 344 can be seen on page 130 of "American Pocket Watch Identification and Price Guide Book 2," Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1974 (A new edition is still in print, see Heart of America Press (http://www.hoapress.com)).

Its also pictured and described on page 38 of a 1914 factory catalog, "How and Why Own a South Bend Watch," South Bend Watch Co., South Bend, IN, 1914, reprinted by Arlington Horology & Book Co., Arlington, VA, undated, but probably early 1980s.

You have a nice, collectable watch,

[DEVILDOG76]

:smile:Hi Kent,

Thanks for the info and I have a question about the date when the watch was made? According to the Shugart guide book on page 370 it shows my watch was made between 1905-1906. I seen a 1904 south bend watch ad from south bend showing a grade 341, which was just before the 344. My serial number is 524,140. You said my watch was made in 1908. Could the guide book be approx. three years off on production and approx. 75,000 serial numbers off on the correct date? I wish they would get the guide book right for all the future collectors and make corrections as needed. I love the watch and if I am right it's the 140 movement made for the grade 344. It keeps great time and I love the model 2 pattern. If the records are right it looks like they made 500 single roller and 500 double roller. That would make my watch one of only 500 single roller grade 344 made. If it was made in 1905-06 then would it be a railroad watch? What I have read about railroad approved watches is they made alot of exceptions until 1906-1908. Even some of the ball watches had single rollers and only marked adjusted. Thanks kent for time and have a nice day.

Sincerely, Don

[Kent]

Could the guide book be approx. three years off on production and approx. 75,000 serial numbers off on the correct date?
Yes!

There are many factors that determined the production of watches. The Panic of 1907 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1907) was one factor. Its a sure thing that watch sales (especially high grade watch sales) slowed down during that year.

There are many instances where serial number vs. date tables determined by dividing the span of serial numbers over a number of years, by that number of years, fail to come up with serial numbers more accurate than plus or minus a couple of years (or more).

For example, The 18-size No 323 and No. 329 "The Studebaker" grades were introduced in about 1910 (see the reprinted ad in the NAWCC Bulletin, December 2000, page 818). The first No. 329 srial number is 521,001 and the first No. 323 serial number is 533,001. The only run of the 16-size Polaris starts with serial number 518,001 (although individaul examples may exist with lower serial numbers). It was introduced in about 1909 (see reprinted ad on page 817 in the same issue).

Another such example is explored in a recent thread on old ref::Seth Thomas Model 5 Movements.

Messrs. Shugart, Engle and Gilbert stress that their "Complete Price Guide To Watches" is only a guide. The information within it is a small fraction of what is known about the watch companies, the watches and their production. In light of the fact that higher grade watches may take 9 to 18 months, or more, from the first stamping of the plates to the completion of the final finishing, what year should be used for the serial number? The Hamilton production ledgers show instances where watches having two adjacent serial numbers in the middle of a run were finished a year apart (786014 & 785015) and some runs were finished over a three or four year period - or longer (see below). Thus the serial number vs. date tables can only be considered as approximations give or take a couple of years. This is generally good enough.

Hamilton Production Ledgers
Hamilton Production Ledgers were donated to the NAWCC Library & Research Center. These show the serial number, date finished, date sold, grade and the distributor/dealer to whom the watch was sold. See the old ref::Sample Page which shows 992L's starting at serial number 786,001 (the ‘S. Fin’ and ‘S.F.’ in the grade column indicate Special Finish). These go up to serial number 824,700 and then portions of the later serial number series such as the C, 4C, 1B and 2B. These are the serial numbers for 992B’s, 4992B’s, 999B’s and the '2B' series of 950B's. Circulating microfilm copies of the ledgers are available to the membership by mail, three reels at a time. You can use the Lending Library Printable Lending Form (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/lendform.htm).

In order to know what is in each ledger, see the old ref::Ledger Listing, Page 1 [/url] and the [url="http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/eve/forums/,s,2386079361,a,ga,ul,4086017505,ic,Y/Ledger_Listing_2.jpg"]Ledger Listing, Page 2 .