Waltham railroad king special

[Ian from OZ]

Hi everybody, I'm interested in buying a very nice looking RR king special and would like to know what the specifications are and the validity of the sellers statement that the watch is a 2 star(no more than 1000 produced) I am a very, very green watch collector and am little concerned about traps for the unwary buyer. All the best :smile:

[Kent]

Hi Ian:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

That was the published number is in “Complete Price Guide to Watches, No 24,” C. Shugart, T. Engle and R. Gilbert, Cooksey Shugart Publications, Cleveland, TN, 2004 (a new edition comes out each year in February. This book is available at libraries, most major bookstores and online at the NAWCC Gift Shop (http://www.nawcc.org/giftshop/americart/bk_watch.htm)).

Nevertheless, watches containing this marking were built over a number of years, having been drawn from a variety of runs of different grades of model 83 Waltham watches.

Here is a list of the ones that Ed Ueberall and I have in our data base:

Serial No.- Grade

2,065,931 - Am.W.Co.
3,065,931 - No. 25
3,853,040 - AT&Co.
3,854,197 - No. 25
3,854,455 - No. 25
3,994,016 - No. 25
4,028,174 - No. 35
4,064,830 - No. 35
4,260,432 - No. 25
4,300,588 - No. 25
4,300,676 - No. 25
4,300,782 - No. 25
4,338,527 - No. 25
4,338,650 - No. 25
4,632,794 - No. 25
4,678,883 - No. 25
4,679,203 - No. 25
7,133,137 - PSB
7,135,115 - PSB
7,135,204 - PSB
7,135,428 - PSB
7,581,491 - PSB
7,864,306 - PSB
8,321,677 - PSB
8,321,939 - PSB
8,652,266 - PSB
8,652,352 - PSB

Thus, although the published total quantity may be correct, there's room to belive that the total may be higher, but it's very difficult to say for sure.

At any rate, we'd apprciate the serial number and other details of the watch you are considering buying so that it can be added to our data base.

This seems to be a private label, or contract, watch. Just about all the watch companies, including the Swiss firms, would mark both the watch movements and/or the dials in just about any manner for any customer who wished to pay for the service. I don't have any exact references for the costs, but I've heard (read?) that, for some companies, if five or more watches were ordered, there was no charge for marking the movements. Specially marked dials were said to cost 25 or 50 cents each. Some watch manufacturers were more liberal. Private label watches were contracted for by a large range of companies, from Sears, Roebuck down to the smaller jewelers in the little towns. The Illinois Watch Co. probably produced the largest number of private label watches, a number of which, mostly those with names associated with railroads, are considered to be highly collectable.

It seems that once a watch is recognized as a special order, or private label, watch, it doesn't really matter from which run/grade it was drawn. The only thing that matters is what was contracted for by the buyer. It was only for convenience (i.e., production efficiency) that private label movements for higher grade watches were taken from runs of high grade watches, thus minimizing the task of meeting special order requirements. Although, in general, the finish and adjustment of a private label watch is probably the same as that of the grade of the run from which it was taken, until one sees the retailer's description of the watch, it is indeterminate whether its description matches that of the factory run from which it was drawn. Lack of actual grade identification and indeterminate adjustment are probably the key reasons why private label watches were eventually prohibited in railroad time service. A classic example of differences from the factory grade are the earlier Waltham Canadian Pacific Railway model 1883s. They were pulled from runs of 15-jewel No. 25, No. 35 and Appleton, Tracy & Co. grades, but all of the Canadian Pacific Railway model 1883s are 17-jewel watches, the exact adjustment of which is indeterminate (although probably as good as, or better then, the grade of the runs from which they were drawn).

Good luck,

[Ian from OZ]

Hi Kent, thanks for the information. The watch was on Ebay with very high reserve. I didnt manage to bid up to it, It got ridiculous. Anyway I have the serial number off the movement for you as 8321935.

[Kent]

Ian:

Thanks for the information, it got me to eBay #230071527613 (which is now over).

The (correctly-signed "For RR Service") dial is a bit unusual for having those gold-colored arcs in the margin.

The final price wasn't the highest that we have a record of for these watches. Serial number 8321939 sold on eBay for over $650 in 2004 with a "For RR Service" double-sunk, Roman dial. I don't know if it is really worth that much, but I can understand why people would pay those amounts because of the railroad markings on the dial and movement.

[Fred Hansen]

There are several fancier dial styles that show up sometimes on the Waltham Special RR King ... this one was less ornate than some of these others, but definitely fancier than the double-sunk plain white enamel dial they are also sometimes seen with.

Fred

[Ian from OZ]

Thanks Fred and Kent, Still looking. Its actually going to be a gift for my 50th this October so I don't have to rush things. Will keep an eye on ebay and our chapters club auction this August.

Ian from OZ

[Fred Hansen]

If you keep a sharp eye on eBay I'd say the odds are with you for seeing another before August.

Of course you might also find something else you like in the meantime ... :smile:

Fred