Columbia watch; Waltham watch; photos provided; info needed

[Victoria]

Many thanks to Tom Huber and Kent for their suggestions. I am looking for info (date, provenance, value?) of these two watches. My grandfather had a jewelry/watch store and hobbied with watches and clocks of all kinds, therefore he and my mother have left me several items about which I know little. That said, I've learned quite a bit about pocketwatches in the last several days!

The Columbia watch. The hunter case is gold and quite ornate.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m271/Vimica9/columbia7.jpg



Here is the face:



http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m271/Vimica9/columbia1.jpg

And the works:

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m271/Vimica9/columbia5.jpg



No need to squint; the inside reads Columbia USA. Phila. Case Co. Victory 4069018. All of which my grandfather wrote on a tag tied to it about a million years ago. He also wrote "7J". (Does that mean 7 jewel pairs?) Concerning its value, the watch does not currently run. Clearly it's sustained a bit of damage.

I'm going to save the Waltham for a subsequent post and make sure this works.

[Victoria]

Ok, now for the Waltham. It is beautiful. I obtained its serial number from the works (not the case) and got little to no info from the Waltham databse. Is it too new? Does it have replacement parts? It certainly looks antique.

The works say: "American Waltham Watch Co. Safety Barrel 9771935 15 Jewel" The case says: "612173 Warranted Wadsworth 25 Years"

Case front:
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m271/Vimica9/waltham1fr.jpg

I didn't photograph the works of the Waltham, since I had the serial number and the info from it, but if I need to, let me know. Here's the face:

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m271/Vimica9/waltham3.jpg


This one is in beautiful condition and works fine.

I'm not looking for a free appraisal here - I plan on selling them eventually and will follow the proper steps - but any info anyone can provide is very helpful!

Many thanks.

[Tom Huber]

Victoria, CAn you post a pic of the movement of the Columbia? Also, can you post a pic of the inside of the case back cover? The Columbia case has a look of gold filled, not solid gold. I might be wrong, but the markings inside the back cover can generally tell the story on metal content.

Tom

[Victoria]

Thanks for the feedback! The Columbia has two "case back covers". The outer one has no markings but sort of looks brassy (gold filled sounds right to me) and has a tiny hand-scratched number: 166N9. The inside inside (cover over the works) has only the markings Phila. Watch Case. Co. and Victory: Warranted Ten Years. That would support your gold-fill idea (if that is the warranty on the gold coating?)

I'll try to post a photo of the Waltham's works. Thanks again!

[Victoria]

Here is a photo of the Waltham's works. I can enlarge if needed. Thanks!

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m271/Vimica9/waltham6.jpg

[Kent]

Victoria:

For the Columbia watch:

Tiny numbers and marks, hand-scratched on the inside of the back of a case, are most likely watch repairer's or jeweler's marks. When watches were serviced, the watch repairer would place his mark and/or a date code inside the back. The marking might include a code to indicate the type of service that was done. Thus, when the watch came back, the watchmaker would instantly know just when he (or she) last worked on it.

Yes, the 10 years is the warranty on the gold coating.

The book, “History of the American Watch Case,” Warren H. Niebling, Whitmore Publishing, Philadelphia, PA, 1971 (available on loan by mail to members from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm)), has a fairly good history of the Philadelphia Watch Case Co., including reproductions of over twenty photos taken inside of the factory. Briefly, quoting from page 48,

"MR. THEOPHILUS ZURBRUGG bought out the watch case company of Leichty & Le Bouba in 1884, in Philadelphia, Pa.

"About 1888 he changed the name to the Philadelphia Watch Case Co. He made various types of cases, using a crown as one trademark and an arm and hammer as another. ... The company moved to Riverside, N.J. in 1902. ...

"In 1904 this man managed a series of mergers, which brought together his own Philadelphia Watch Case Co., Bates and Bacon, Crescent and the Keystone Watch Case Co."

From page 7:
"... After a series of mergers in 1904 the name became the Keystone Watch Case Co., Riverside, N.J."

Regardless of the company’s name, the cases continued to be stamped with previous, well-known trade names.

Regarding the Waltham:

Looking the movement serial number (9771935) up on the <span class="ev_code_brown">Serial Number</span> link accessable from the NAWCC Information Storage (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/walsernum.htm) website, it can be seen to be a modest, Seaside grade ladies watch, built about 1900. Judging from your picture, it is fitted with 15 jewels.

Information about the Wadsworth Watch Case Co. (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-9/1217458/1903_Wadsworth_LR.jpg) can be found in the book, "History of the American Watch Case," Warren H. Niebling, Whitmore Publishing, Philadelphia, PA, 1971, pages 49-50, (available on loan by mail to members from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm)). Harry Arthur Wadsworth and his partner, J.H. Stegman began the case making firm of H.A. Wadsworth & Co. in 1889 in Newport, KY. Three years later, it became incorporated as The Wadsworth Watch Case Co. The factory moved to Dayton, KY in 1900. At the same time, the nature of the company's sales began to change. Prior to the turn of the century, Wadsworth sold only to wholesalers, but after the move to Dayton, they began to sell directly to movement manufacturers. Known for making high grade solid gold and gold-filled cases, Wadsworth was absorbed by the Elgin National Watch Co. in 1953. The change of ownership didn't help hold off the loss of sales to foreign imports and the watch case factory closed in 1958.

[Victoria]

Thank you so very much for your time and effort. Fascinating info! I'm so glad to learn the ladies' watch is from 1900. How did you determine that? That was what confused me about the info from the serial number database - no date range.

Tom said previously: "From your serial number, I think your Columbia was mfg by the New York Standard Watch Co in Jersey City, NJ. They were in business from 1885 to 1930. When the factory closed, sadly, all records were pitched, so no info is availability on NY std serial numbers."

Anyone want to venture guesses on a date range for the Columbia?

I am sincerely grateful for all the help.

[StanJS]

Victoria,

There are lists of serial numbers vs year that give appriximate dating. Besides, that is one of the numbers we pocket watch collectors carry around in our heads. Waltham serial number 10,000,000 was about 1900. An easy memory trick for approximate dating while scouring the flea markets and junk stores.

The Columbia Watch Company was in existence from 1896-99.

Cheers,
Stan

[Victoria]

Thanks for the tidbit about the Waltham #10,000,000. I have come to really like that little watch... I suppose my mother and grandfather did too.(Starting to wonder if watch collecting isn't transmitted genetically.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

The Columbia Watch Company was in existence from 1896-99.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this the Illinois company or the Jersey City one, or another altogether? Thanks so much for your comments.

[Kent]

Victoria:

My apologies for taking a shortcut and not posting the full "blurb" that I have on Waltham:

The American Waltham Watch Co. (Waltham, MA) had its origins in the 1850's. It was the first successful company in America to manufacture watches in mass production using machinery to make identical (or at least, near identical) parts. Over the next hundred years or so of its existence, its output of jeweled watches (over 34 million) was only exceeded by one other company, the National Watch Co. at Elgin, IL. Commonly referred to as "Waltham," the company made a full line of watches ranging from modest, affordable watches to some of the finest watches made in this country. An 1884 article on the American Watch Co. (http://members.aol.com/gfrauen10/walthampage.html) is available on Greg Frauenhoff's website.

You can find out some basic facts about your Waltham watch by entering the serial number on the movement (the "works") in the field on the Serial Number link accessable from the NAWCC Information Storage (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/walsernum.htm) website. Don't use any commas in entering the serial number. There is also a Glossary (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/Glossary.htm) of the terms provided by the serial number lookup. Note: When a number appears by itself in the Comment Column, it is the page in the factory serial list where the entry and explaination appeared. i.e. "Comment 42" is on page 42 of “Serial Numbers With Description of Waltham Watch Movements,� Waltham Watch Co., Waltham, MA, 1954, (commonly referred to as "The Gray Book"). Or, a similar search may be done at the Swiss - Waltham Website (http://www.waltham.ch/cgi/waltham/search.asp). This website also has a short history of the American Waltham Watch Co. and other interesting information. But, as Tom McIntyre Pointed Out (http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/4316035461/m/6771072851/r/5581066951#5581066951), more complete information is available at the NAWCC Information Storage website.

Should the date not be listed in the search of the NAWCC Information Storage - Waltham Serial Number Data Base, Oldwatch.com's Waltham Production Date Chart (http://www.oldwatch.com/walthamdate.html), or the PocketWatchSite's Waltham Date Table (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/walthamserials.html) are a means for determining the approximate production date. In general, we think of serial number lists (not just for Waltham, but for other watch manufacturers as well) to only be accurate within a year or two at best, and recognize that there are numerous exceptions wherein which the dates may be off as much as 3 years or more.

I don't know of any online catalog literature for the Seaside grade, but I think that your watch is very similar to the Waltham grade No. 65 shown in the middle (left) of page 78 of the 1903 Oy Company Catalog at:
www.elginwatches.com/scans/sales_catalogs/1903_Oy_Company/m_index.html

To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

As you can see, it is towards the middle of Waltham's line of 0-size watches.

[Victoria]

Thank you so much for the catalog link and the additional resources!

It does look similar to that picture (no. 65). Thank you so much for kindly sharing so much detail and expertise.

[Tom Huber]

Victoria, We need a pic of the movement for the Columbia. As Vic said above, there was a columbia Watch Co in business for several years at the turn of the Century. NY Std also used that name on 6S movements. Columbia watch Company only made 0S movements--the same size as your Waltham. The 6S is slightly bigger.

Tom