joseph johnson of liverpool

[phh]

i can't tell you anything about the movement on this one because i cant see it. it is completely enclosed. all i see is a gold colored trapezoidal thing-sort of a triangle with the top cut off and a slightly curved base, lying flat- and one screw. my guess is that the screw is holding down the thing covering the movement, but i am afraid to touch this thing with a screwdriver. the case is very complicated. it has about 4 hinges for the front, the back, the movement, and they are all connected. you can't separate any one piece from the whole thing. the case is gold. it is stamped "18" and under that are 3 marks. from left to right they are: profile of a woman's head facing right (the queen?), a lion facing left with one front paw up, a horse's head facing right (looks like a chess piece). the number on the case is 22905. there is no number on the movement. maybe there is one under the cover. forgive me if i am giving extraneous information. i don't really know what is important and what isn't.

[phh]

i can't tell you anything about the movement on this one because i cant see it. it is completely enclosed. all i see is a gold colored trapezoidal thing-sort of a triangle with the top cut off and a slightly curved base, lying flat- and one screw. my guess is that the screw is holding down the thing covering the movement, but i am afraid to touch this thing with a screwdriver. the case is very complicated. it has about 4 hinges for the front, the back, the movement, and they are all connected. you can't separate any one piece from the whole thing. the case is gold. it is stamped "18" and under that are 3 marks. from left to right they are: profile of a woman's head facing right (the queen?), a lion facing left with one front paw up, a horse's head facing right (looks like a chess piece). the number on the case is 22905. there is no number on the movement. maybe there is one under the cover. forgive me if i am giving extraneous information. i don't really know what is important and what isn't.

[Jerry Treiman]

These English watches typically have a dustcover protecting the movement. The dustcover is held on at two pins near the edge of the movement. The dustcover is locked to the pins by a sliding 1/2-ring of blued steel. You can release the dustcover by catching the screw on this steel ring with your finger nail and sliding it around to release the pins. You are wise to be cautious about removing screws. When we regain the ability to post pictures I will add one to illustrate the dustcover.

[phh]

thanks jerry. what i'm talking about is what you see after you remove the dust cover. it is just a cylinder about an inch and a half in diameter and maybe 1/4-1/2 inch tall. the key winding post sticks up from it and there is the thing i call the gold trapezoid thing. it probably has a specific name. if i knew it i could be more clear. the trapezoid is flush with the flat surface of the cylinder and there is one screw. no moving parts are visible except there is also a gear with a ratchet. i don't know if it has to do with winding it or with the running of it because it doesn't work or even wind. i hope this makes some sense. i am really new to this. probably if i knew more of the terms i could describe it really easily. i will have pictures up of all the watches i have asked about early next week. that will make it easier i hope.

[phh]

or is there another dustcover after the one that has the hole for the winding key in it?

[Jerry Treiman]

The "cylinder" you are describing is what is the actual dustcover on these watches. I think the "gold trapezoid" is part of the balance cock that is visible. The ratchet and pawl that you see is for setting up the mainspring by the watchmaker and not for winding. If you send me your contact info (my email is listed in my profile) I can email a photo to you.

[Jerry Treiman]

Check the linked image in this old ref::OTHER THREAD and see if the dustcover in the right-hand photo looks like what you have.

[phh]

that is pretty much exactly what it looks like, jerry. so the serial # will be under that then. and it is probably an english movement? i read some stuff about that maker on this site and he wound up being a dealer of swiss movements. it sounded like an english movement would be a lot more interesting than a swiss one.

[Oliver Mundy]

This certainly sounds like a genuine English watch made by the firm of Johnson, rather than one of the piracies produced by Swiss makers in the third quarter of the 19th century; these almost always had a quite different layout, without the separate bracket or 'cock' (described by Jerry Treiman) for the balance-wheel. The exposed ratchet is a feature found only in the 1840s and 1850s.

The marks in the case are English gold hallmarks and should include a date-letter. I wonder if the 'horse's head', which I cannot account for, could be a badly-struck date-letter - possibly a Gothic upper-case F (1841), an L (1846) or a lower-case Gothic f (1861)? (See www.horologia.co.uk.hallmarks1.html (http://www.horologia.co.uk.hallmarks1.html) and www.horologia.co.uk/hallmarks2.html (http://www.horologia.co.uk/hallmarks2.html) for illustrations of these date-letters.)

Oliver Mundy.