How 'bout this Illinois Pattern??

[terry hall]

A few years ago, I posted a request (at Mike Chamelin's request) for information from fellow collectors for any 16s Illlinois watches in the 3491000 range.

I received only a few responses, but nothing close. We were wanting to try to document a 'new' pattern for the Bunn Special 16 size.

The watch below has been checked over, all numbers match, It has a private label dial, which in later posts we will provide a scan and documentation of the signature of the private label.

Mike will have to tell his story of its acquisition.... He was able to speak with Bill Meggers about the watch before his death. Bill named the pattern....

I have to transfer some images to a different server to complete all the posts... so full disclosure may take a few days, but we have time.. :biggrin: The pattern is VERY difficult to capture the details...

Mike and I are open to comments...as always...and want to here of other examples near this serial number to determine total production...... Mike has documented an example in almost each 100 block in this run.

So now.....

A 16 size Bunn Special "PINWHEEL" (*Meggers notation) PATTERN...

http://web.InfoAve.Net/~ehall/pinwheelbarrelbridge.jpg

[Fred Hansen]

Great discovery and no surprise where it now resides! Thanks for posting Terry and I'm looking forward to the additional details.

:wink:

Fred

[michael chamelin]

I have been collecting Illinois pocketwatchs since my dad and grandfather started me off in 1971 at the ripe 'ol age of 13, with a 12 size A. Lincoln, as I became more well heeled through the years I always looked for the rarer watchs. Imagine my surprise when I stumbled up on this one. The story goes like this:.... I was on an overnight in Richmond , Va. in January 1998 (I am an airline pilot for a major carrier) when I walked into a Jewelry/Pawnshop downtown which I had frequented several times before. I talked horology with the owner and his son for about 20 minutes or so and on this particular day they had no watchs I was really interested in, so I was saying my goodbyes when the junior proprietor said , "Just a minute Mike, I forgot we just had a Bunn Special come out of pawn yesterday, would you like to see it?"...I asked if it was an Elinvar or 60 hour or 23 jewels, to which he said no and I said, "well, I need to get back to the hotel to clean up as we are out of here in 3 hours to Chicago", and then I remembered that I am always hoping for an early 16 size brightspot, fishscale, hunter or maybe a super rare Delong escapement example, so I said, .."well,let's look at it right quick", knowing it would only take a minute to decide if I wanted it. When the owner brought it out of the safe in a cigar box along with a lot of women's wristwatches, I was feeling like I was wasting my time for sure but as it would only take a minute and it is the hunt that is important, I continued to indulge the moment. He handed me the watch and it was very dirty, the case was worn, no bow, yellowed plastic crystal, but the dial was of interest as it was a porceline double sunk jewelry store private label marked "B. Gutter and Sons" but was so dark and dirty from having never been cleaned that I could not tell if it had any hairlines and it appeared to me chances of this being a desirable watch were dim at best until I opened the back.......and then when I saw the pattern, it was all I could do to keep a poker face and not let my eyebrows raise or mouth fall open, containing myself quickly I knew that 1) I had never seen the pattern before, 2) It was not in the Illinois book,(of which I have studied for thousands of hours through the years), 3)It was a rare variant probably not known to exist among collectors and 4) I was going to buy it whatever the price,.....so I continued my best poker demeanor as I finished looking at it, closed the back and laid it down on the counter as there was NO one else around, except me and the 2 owners. I fingered through his wristwatchs to appear not too attached to it when he asked if I had any interest, I asked what his price was and he said $275.00....of course the game was on at that point and I took an extra moment and negotiated the watch from his establishment for 225 out the door,tax, tags and bragging rights. I said my adues and quickly made my way down the street to my hotel, where I was so excited I could hardly quit looking at it or contain myself in time to get ready for my flight....the watch over the next week, was professionally cleaned and oiled and proved to be all numbers matching, the dial perfect, and the movement cleaned up wonderfully in appearance to very near mint, with full and true balance motion. Imagine my added excitement when about a year later, lightning struck twice. Terry Hall and a friend found on Ebay some emphamera which had of all things an old orginal advertisement from an old magazine for this exact "pinwheel" pattern,(the movement serial number in the ad was an astounding 27 numbers higher than mine) and was an ad for a jewelry store in New York City (B. Gutter &Sons was a jewelry store in nyc also). I sent picture negatives of the watch in 1999 to Bill Meggars in Ridgecrest, California and he named the pattern a "Pinwheel" which I think it should be referred to from now on out of respect for him. I explained that I had seen a Bunn Special movement from this run of 1000 watchs at the Portland National in June of 1998 that was 101 numbers higher than mine but it was a normal rayed pattern (I bought it as well and I think Terry has a picture of it also) to which Bill replied that there were probably no more than 100 of my watch made as a marketing trial by the Illinois Watch Company of a new pattern for Bunn Specials. He said, in his opinion these were probably sold to the best selling jewelry stores in the largest cities of the good ol US of A and as an educated guess there were probably at least 40 made oweing to the factory ad I had told him of. It was his additional consensus that the pattern probably did not sell well and was discontinued and production returned to the well known and favored Rayed pattern. So.....3,491,001-3,491,100 should now be of special interest to all Bunn Special collectors. I have recorded a normal rayed pattern example from most all the other 100 blocks of this 1000 watch run from 1919....so the "Pinwheel" is only in the first 100 block of this run and is as far as I know (and everyone I have talked to about it for the last 6 years) the only one known to exist...I hope someone out there has another we can record and document but I have owned the watch for 6 & 1/2 years now and have given up on ever finding another one cheap and wanted to share it with the collecting world at the NAWCC first. This watch has only been seen by less than a dozen people since I have owned it and I was thankful my father got to see and enjoy it before he passed on. He taught me to look at every watch you get a chance to see as you never know what you might find.( I have always made it a habit to look at every Bunn Special at all the shows I go to which takes some time) On this particular day going the "extra minute" paid off handsomely. I have him and Providence to thank for stumbling across this watch. It is probably one of the rarest of the rare Bunn Specials ever made and I am proud to be able to share it with you members and my good friends at the NAWCC. I would also like to thank Terry Hall for all his kindness in this post and we will be sharing other pictures of the watch in the next few days ahead. Enjoy and all comments good or otherwise are welcome. Michael Chamelin

[Kent]

Michael:

<span class="ev_code_red">Great Watch!</span>

A B. Gutter & Sons ad was reprinted in the October 2000 NAWCC Bulletin, on page 634 (link below). Instead of showing a Bunn Special, this February 1919 ad shows what seems to be an A. Lincoln movement.

Although the ad calls it the "B.G.&S Railroad Watch," its unlikely that the movement would be marked as such (the requirement that the movement be marked with the manufacturers' grade name or number was commonplace by 1919). But the dial could certainly be signed "B. Gutter & Sons." Its interesting that the date of the ad is close to that of the Pinwheel damaskeened Bunn Special with that dial.

Serial number 3,491,066 is in our data base as having been offered by an internet dealer about five years ago. We have no note regarding the damaskeening pattern, but its possible that the dealer still has notes about, or pictures of, the movement. Please contact me offline (K_Singer@knology.net) and I'll provide some information about the seller.

Good luck,
Kent

[terry hall]

Kent,

Thanks for posting that B. Gutter ad from The Bulletin. I has also copied it for this purpose.

After the "discovery", my friend Robert Leonard sent to me an ebay listing of an ad. After purchasing the ad, another appeared, but if i recollect, had the same image cut. The 'great' thing about these ads was the showed another example of the watch! :biggrin: But with a higher serial number... and a different vendor???

http://24.167.145.219/terry/Pinwheel/pinwheeladvertisment.jpg

[Kent]

Terry:

What's the date of the Sterling Diamond & Watch Co. ad?

[ljrusso]

Gentlemen,

That is a great story. I cannot comment really on Illinois and Bunns but based upon what I have read that is a great find and as said a great story.

Cheers

Louis

[JP]

Michael,
I have been searching the house for that pawn ticket I know I will find it but you can keep the watch until than. :smile: :smile: Great story and even greater find. How do you guys do it?
John Perez

[Held]

A wonderful story...and obvious to me now...I need to get out more!!

Craig

[terry hall]

Kent,
There was not a date on the page, but the person Mike obtained this from had 1923 written on the sleeve of the package. I cannot say if that is correct or not........

Here is another image of this movement, showing some of the damaskeen detail...

http://24.167.145.219/terry/Pinwheel/pinwheelbalance.jpg

It won't take long to make this thread dial up un-friendly, but lets give it a go...


Here is an image of the closest movement serial number to this one to be documented, notice it has the normal rayed pattern....

http://24.167.145.219/terry/Pinwheel/rayedpattern102higher.jpg

Here is a high resolution scan of the dial... I like the 'dot' in the "O" :smile:

click the link below,

B GUTTER DIAL (http://24.167.145.219/terry/pinwheel%20from%20photographs/pinwheel%20dial.jpg)

[Russ Snyder]

Terry and/or Mike,

Would one of you be so kind as to send me a digital photo of the movement so I can add it to my Illinois database? The first picture posted was good, but still had some of the movement missing.

Perhaps we should name it the way they do newly discovered species of plants & animals: "Chamelinus Meggerosi".

[terry hall]

Sure Russ, sent under separate cover.

This damaskeen pattern was difficult to photograph to make it stand out. Mike had some professional photographs taken, but they did not show the pattern as well as the partial images... I scaned the photographs (they are 1meg + size each) just for fun...

Here is the image I sent Russ....

http://24.167.145.219/terry/Pinwheel/MVC-021F.JPG

[michael chamelin]

Thanks to all who have posted so far, this has been something I have been looking forward to for a long time and is proving to be very enjoyable as I hoped. Kent's post about 3,491,066 being sold on ebay 5 or so years ago is of great interest to me as it raises speculation of course about what pattern it had. I would be willing to bet that it may have been just an ordinary rayed pattern as I am sure at least 2 bidders would have been "at it" and run up a fairly high bid had it been a pinwheel. This is encouraging as if we can run it down, it may prove that there were fewer than the maximum of 100 that Meggars suggested could have been made. The hunt and research continues!!!

[crsides]

Great find, story and pics. This is exciting stuff for so many collectors of the Bunn Special.

Thanks Mike and Terry.

To the hunt, to the hunt !


Charlie

[terry hall]

An update on this one.....


Well , the "Pinwheel" variant Bunn Special is now confirmed to be a little rarer than first believed. Mr Bill Meggars suggested to me back in 1999 that the production would probably fall between 40 and 100 movements based on movements we had seen, the factory advertisement and his very seasoned "educated guesswork" ...now,due to the GREAT record keeping of Kent Singer and Ed Uberall, they were able to put me in touch with a seller who runs a website selling watchs who in May of 1999 sold a 21J Bunn Special serial # 3,491,066. I contacted him back in July and explained I would like to see a picture if possible of that watch as it may have been a very rare pattern or possibly just a common rayed pattern....he was very nice and polite and answered me that he would try to track down any records of the transaction, he then put his daughter on the trail and after a few weeks he/she sent me some pictures of the watch and although the pics were not that great (I amazed he kept pics from 5 years back) I was easily able to tell it was a common rayed pattern, plain dial and had been recased in a later First Model Bunn Special case from the late 20's showing some brassing. Price was 340. This was very exciting for me to find a movement so close in number to mine. So practical experience suggests that we can now narrow the production of the "pinwheels" down to 60 movements at most with possibly as few as 40. This again was most welcome news to me (and good info for the collecting world of Bunn Specials). A great big THANKYOU goes out to Kent and Ed from me for their kindness in sharing a prospective lead. On a side note, it would really be a wild card if somewhere in these 40-60 watcehs there should somewhere turn up or be a run of maybe ten or so 23J pinwheels!! As the only ones seen are the one I own (3,491,012) and the one in the NYC jewelers ad (3,491,039) which is 27 away. So it is theoretically "possible" that maybe a 23j example exists. At any rate I would be happy just to see another 21J example turn up! So again thanks to all and Happy Hunting!

[Fred Hansen]

Has this damaskeen pattern been seen on any other Illinois movement?

Recently I came across this 19 jewel grade 706 Illinois, with a very close pattern ...

http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6%3DzqH%3AxxqUD7qRUrKxzX7BHpUUKx gXP0l%3F87KR6xqpxQQQexoloxaPaxv8uOc5xQQQ0QnGllJ0eJ qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXP0l%7CRup6eJe%7C/of=50,474,442

http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6%3DzqH%3AxxqUD7qRUrKxzX7BHpUUKx gXP0o%3F87KR6xqpxQQQexoloxaPaxv8uOc5xQQQ0QnGllJ0eG qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXP0o%7CRup6eoe%7C/of=50,487,442

... looks to me just about the same design at the outsides, but with a break in the design at the center.

So can I name this one "pinwheel junior"?

:wink:

Fred

[michael chamelin]

I agree, Fred, it is basically the same pattern, just different in the center, you have my permission and blessings. May I suggest you call this a "Bridge Pinwheel Pattern" ?...It certainly is good to see even in a mid grade watch and lends some credence to my Bunn Special Pinwheel pattern that it was a valid pattern they were possibly considering for continued production.

Good find and hopefully helps to train other eyes for what to look for in that elusive Bunn Special Pattern we all are searching for and all hoping to find another example of soon. Thanks for showing and Happy Hunting!

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Mike ... I don't think I had ever seen this damaskeen pattern on an Illinois watch before you showed your great 21J Bunn Special here.

But it is interesting now to see that the same basic design was used occasionally on at least one other grade and of course the question now is might there be any other grades this pattern was used on?

Seeing and hearing of the new finds and then considering the new questions they create might be my favorite part of collecting Illinois watches.

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

Bunn Special serial #3491141 just ended on eBay ... but was the common rayed pattern damaskeen and not a pinwheel pattern like Mike's watch.

Fred

[Jeff Hess]

Mike,

great story..


Thanks

[michael chamelin]

Thanks so much for the kind comment, Jeff.....and Yes, Fred, I saw that auction on ,141 and this continues to confirm for us that the pinwheel (so far) is only contained from 3,491,001-3,491,060?..... # ,066 was sold in 1999 in St. Louis as previously reported and was also a normal rayed pattern...so, probably only say 40-60 produced, but even so, it seems odd to me that another one has not turned up in the last 2 and 1/2 years since Terry Hall and I first made this watch public knowledge. Of course I and a few close friends have been adamantly looking for another one for almost 9 years now.... the current reward for another one is already pushing insane proportions, as I am constantly receiving higher and higher offers for mine almost every month.., when will another one turn up?..it seems only time will tell.... Happy Hunting!

[Tom Walker]

I was looking for another watch today in safe keeping and ran across an Illinois Bunn 17j, OF, adjusted for temperature and 5 positions that has almost the identical damaskeening pattern of Fred Hansen's 19j Illinois pictured above. The serial # is 2736947, a few years earlier than Fred's watch. I've had this watch for a long time and never paid much attention to the damaskeening pattern of the movement other than that it was stunning. I'll try to get a picture soon.
Tom Walker

[terry hall]

Tom
of course we would be interested in seeing it....

but it 'may' turn out to be a standard rayed pattern that was used on the 17 and 19 jewel Bunn grade 16s watches...

if you need help hosting the image, just write.

.

[Tom Walker]

Terry,
My 17J Bunn has the same damaskeening pattern as the picture of the 163 on pages 277 and 282 in the "Complete Price Guide to Watches", No. 26. Is this the standard rayed pattern you mentioned above? The movement layout is also the same as the 163.
Tom

[terry hall]

Tom,
This is not a great image, but it is what i have at the moment.

it shows the standard rayed pattern used on the 17 and 19 jewel Bunn 16s grade.

The images in the PG you mention are the fourth rayed pattern and (so far) have only been seen on the 21 and 23 jewel count Bunn Special grade.

Please compare to your example and report...

http://web.InfoAve.Net/~ehall/19JBunnback.jpg

[Tom Walker]

Terry,
Thanks for the picture and the explanation of the fourth rayed pattern. To the untrained eye it's difficult to distinguish the rayed patterns of Bunn 17J and 19J from the 21J and 23J Bunn Specials. I have a few higher grade Bunn Specials so I need to compare the 17J with them so I can see the difference in the rayed patterns.
Tom

[terry hall]

Tom,

Easy to do side by side..... in hand...

a technique described by the Jon Hanson coined phrase "stare and compare"...

If you need some additional experience, come on over to Chapter 17 meeting in March... Let me know and I will set up a session...in person... :wink:


we may even be able to talk mike into bringin the pinwheel... ???????????
.

[Robert Smothers]

Pinwheel...pictures