Illinois Bunn Special- Rare and exceptional, or not?

[Pegleg]

I'm a newby at Railroad Watch collecting and to the message boards here. Would like some more well informed opinions. I'm interested in the Illinois watches, specifically the Bunn Specials. Recently, I saw a watch on E-bay (yes I looked at E-bay, please don't flame me... :rolleyes:) that intersted me. ILLINOIS BUNN SPECIAL (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4908922094)

For my knowledge, with what you can see from the pictures, does the watch appear to be Rare and exceptional, as advertised, or not? Your opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Great site here!

Thanks for your help!

Rich

[Pegleg]

I'm a newby at Railroad Watch collecting and to the message boards here. Would like some more well informed opinions. I'm interested in the Illinois watches, specifically the Bunn Specials. Recently, I saw a watch on E-bay (yes I looked at E-bay, please don't flame me... :rolleyes:) that intersted me. ILLINOIS BUNN SPECIAL (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4908922094)

For my knowledge, with what you can see from the pictures, does the watch appear to be Rare and exceptional, as advertised, or not? Your opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Great site here!

Thanks for your help!

Rich

[Fred Hansen]

Hi Rich -

Quick answer ... I am away from my books at the moment, but this movement is the most common variant of the 23 jewel 60 hour models. Nonetheless it is a popular and desirable watch among today's collectors and brings a strong price.

The dial marked "Bunn Special" dial is likewise very desirable among many collectors and commands a significant premium over the plain "Illinois" marked dial, but to call it rare would be an overstatement. There are a few even more desirable variations on this dial (Montgomery or the "6 Pos." marking) that seem more difficult to find than this one, but even these would be a stretch to call rare.

And as for the case I believe this Model 28 isn't too difficult to find in yellow, but I believe there is a variation in the bows on these and perhaps this is the more difficult style to find? I'm not sure about this, I like the earlier Bunn Specials much more myself :cool:, so I will let someone more qualified than myself weigh in on this count.

Fred

[terry hall]

Fred is right on the money.....

Dial, though desirable, would not be considered 'rare'.

The bow is the 'early' (shall we call it contoured?) version that 'droops' down over the pendant.

It is very difficult to determine the 'true' condition of this case with the ebay hosted images of this size. But judging by the description..... expect to find brass.

[Jon Hanson]

Desirable and sought after to fill out a collection? Yes

Rare? HARDLY

[Pegleg]

Thanks all for your responses!

I really like the Illinois Bunn Specials not only for the look and quality of the watches, but also due to the fact that years and years ago my Mother worked for the Bunn family at the Springfield Marine Bank.

I know that Values are not to be discussed on this board, so I picked up the Complete price Guide to Watches volume 24 by Shugart, Engle, and Gilbert. Based on my limited knowledge of how to look up watches in the book, would this watch be listed in the book as follows?

Bunn Special,23J,LS,NI,3/4,GJS,Adj.6P,GT,,OF With 23J,60-hour on dial

Based on what you can see in the photo's how would you all grade the watch? Would it be a G-6? Higher, Lower?

Thanks again for the help!

Rich

[Fred Hansen]

Hi Rich -

Another book I very highly recommend for you is the 1985 Illinois Watch Co. Vol. 2 book by Bill Meggers and Roy Ehrhardt. This book contains a tremendous amount of information on Illinois pocketwatches (including much on the Bunn Special variations), and will take you far beyond where the Shugart guide leaves off. Photocopied reprints of this book are commonly available, but I would suggest keeping an eye out for a used original since the image quality is much better.

Beyond this Illinois book, there is a CD database by Russ Snyder on the grades and models of the Illinois Watch Co. that is available through NAWCC Ch. 149. This database is constantly being revised to reflect ongoing research, and Ch. 149 President Jon Hanson could fill you in on the details of how to obtain one.

Fred

[HenryB]

Condition can not really determined from photos.

So much goes into condition.
I have been fooled a couple of times from Ebay on condition (particularly the "crispness of the movement").
From Ebay, it is best to assume, when evaluating an average condition, unless you know the seller, and the seller knows what he is doing.

Nice Railroad Watch for sure.

[Dr. Jon]

Here is a bit more from the Meggers Ehrhardt book.

Yours is a "type III". It was in production from 1926 to 1930 with yours closer to 1930 than 1926. It is the most common variant of the 23 Jewel 60 hour. When new it sold for $75.

While yours is the most commong variant, this is still a generally uncommon class of watch and is a very fine item. It also has a well regarded dial. If you get a copy of Meggers and Ehrhardt you will learn a lot more including all the variations of 60 hour 23 Jewel Bunn Specials.

One thing I particlularly like is that the lower plate near the balance has two cuts to allow an adjuster to watch the escapement operate. These are present and means you avoided a major pitfall. Some not too clever people added marks to regular 23 jewel Bunn Specials to make them appear to be 60 hour verions. The cuts in your watch show that it is the genuine item as does the serial number.

You really have to take one apart to appreciate all of what they did. They put fine finish and decoration in places that can only be seen when the watch is apart. If you have not done this before you might want to get someone who has done this before to do it and show you "what is under the hood".

There are a lot of folks who spend a lot of time studying Illinois Watches, because they made some fabulous items. I am constantly amazed at ow much material there is on these items.

The 60 hour watch is an elegant solution to the problem of forgetting to wind the watch. This concern was the primary justification for winding indicator watches. You could see at a glance when it was last wound. The down side was complexity and a potential interference with power transfer from the mainspring to the escapement (What makes the watch run).

Illinois, by going to a 60 hour mainspring showed that they could used a longer spring with lower force and much more even power over a 24 hour period and add nothing to interfere with power transfer. This was not easy to do, requiring avery high overall level of quality.

Hamilton tried to copy this unsuccessfully and eventually bought the company to get this technology. To put this into perspective they (Hamilton) not only copied the state of the art marine Chronometer but beat its performance. This puts the 60 hour watch into perspective. One thing about the 60 hour watch is that they had to do this well enough that they could mass produce it. That they made a lot of them in no way detracts, no one else could do it. Illinois had to sow them ow to do it with one variant madde first in Illinois and the later made in Lancaster at the Hamilton factory.



You might also check the pocket horology web site to see Kent Singer's pages on what is a railroad watch.

In summary it looks like you got a very good item. The collection of these is very complex because there are a lot of variants with varying values to collectors who have studied them for a long time.

[michael chamelin]

The cuts or slots that Dr. Jon is referring to are a Hamilton change to the Illinois Bunn Specials that come into production at or approximately around 5.2 million . ON pages 125 and 127 of the Illinois book you will see the 161 and 163 variants, you will notice that they have those slots but the earlier 60 hour watchs before around 5.2 million do NOT.....for example in my collection I have 5,170,110 and it does not have the slots, then I have 5,276,832 and it does, both are all numbers matching, I have been collecting for over 30 years and have owned hundreds of these 60 hour movements and it is simply a change Hamilton put into effect around 1929, matter of fact it is one of the gauges I use when looking at a high dollar 163 variant , as it can tell you if the pillar plate has been changed. however if I am looking at a say type II 23j 60 hour around 4.7 million I do not expect or want to see those slots as it could spell out a parts watch to a trained eye....of course the watch in this post you are referring to is 5,238,xxx and does have those slots or cuts in the pillar plate under the balance ... just wanted to expel on this point that Dr. Jon brought up....they do NOT tell you it is a 60 hour watch , just that it was made after 1928, best regards to all, Michael Chamelin Illinois collector since 1971

[Pegleg]

Wow! You guys really know your stuff!

I actually bought this watch. I was flying a bit from the seat of my pants... Loved the look of it in the pics, read feedback about the seller and then checked my book. Hope that I made an ok decision.

Sounds like there are a couple more books that I need to read, and a whole lot more that I can learn from the VERY Knowledgeable folks on this site.

Thanks again for all your help!

Rich