Mounting a new porcelain face.

[dumbo2]

I am in the process of putting a new porcelain face on a visible escape Ansonia. Before I destroy the new face can someone help with a safe process for the new face? I have looked at two old faces and one was mounted with tabs (3) and one just had solder "gobs" holding it. I don't think the new face will solder and this seems risky. Any suggestions?

[dumbo2]

I am in the process of putting a new porcelain face on a visible escape Ansonia. Before I destroy the new face can someone help with a safe process for the new face? I have looked at two old faces and one was mounted with tabs (3) and one just had solder "gobs" holding it. I don't think the new face will solder and this seems risky. Any suggestions?

[lamarw]

You may of confused me a bit here, but I would not think the solder would even come in contact with the dial itself. Also, I am reading porcelain as the same as enamel dial. I have replaced a couple of Ansonia emamel dials with the three tabs soldered to the back lip of the dial bezel and then with the tab as a pressure contact with the back of the enamel dial. That is the way the original dial was done. Similar to replacing the glass crystal in a bezel. The real tough part is lining up the winding arbor holes, slow/fast regulator hole and etc. Seems like the replacement enamel dials are never a perfect fit no matter how close they appear. I do not like the thought of just gobs of solder as the retainer. That generally causes a fit problem where the dial bezel has to fit into the clock case. Mine were not with open escapement and are one piece enamel dials.

[Scottie-TX]

I've never replaced an ansonia dial but have replaced or re-set many dials and offer a suggestion for arbor/hole alignment. I've had a degree of success using aquarium tubing of various wall thicknesses. Shoved over the arbor and snug to the hole, retain the position of both until attachment is final. I have also used dowel rod drilled and sized to the arbor and hole. A key is a little more awkward unless you have some stray key barrels lying around. That may be a good alignment solution tho for the S/F arbor alignment.

[Joe Collins]

On my Ansonia the dial is held in place by 3 tabs soldered to the Bezel, the inner ring has 3 tabes soldered to the ring and the winding hole bushings are retained by washers soldered to the bushings. All three parts, dial, center ring and winding hole bushings can be moved independantly. I have always regarded this type face as porcelain.
I have attached a photo showing the foregoing info.

Joe Collins
St. Louis, MO

[dumbo2]

Thanks for the response. Sounds like the three tab method and one of the alignment methods suggested.

Thanks again. CB

[Mike Phelan]

Porcelain is a type of china: vitreous enamel as applied to a metal backing is actually just glass with additives.

[Joe Collins]

Mike,
While it is true porcelain is a type of china and glassbeads are used in making enameled ware on this side of the pond at least these dials are refered to as porcelain. To bolster this claim I direct you to pages 59 and 60 of the current TimeSavers Catalog. They list several 'Porcelain' dials but none are listed as 'Enamel.' I also have a reprint of a mail order catalog C. 1895 showing several Ansonia clocks that are available with plain or 'Porcelain' dials.

[lamarw]

I guess I raised an interesting question of whether it is considered porcelain or enamel without knowing and still not knowing the right answer. I have closely followed Joe's reasoning prior to jumping to Mike's defense. Duy Ly's Ansonia book does ID the dials as porcelain. I also collect pocket watches where their dials are considered as enamel (either glass enamel or hard enamel to confuse the question further). Please refer to page 87 of the "Complete Price Guide to Watches: by Shugart/Engle/Gilbert that discuses watch dials. I am sure that someone with certainty can explain the correct nomenclature whether it be by process or materiel. I am leaning toward the enamel side if a vote were taken. Once again, I am probably incorrect.

[Joe Collins]

Lamar,
Now I'm confused. I figured that maybe all clock people called these dials porcelain and all watch people called them enamel. Since LaRose sells supplies to both groups I thought I would check the terminology they used. The current Keep Book #283 had no 'hard' dials listed. I checked Keep Book #126 from 1973 and found one enamel dial listed. Looked like a 400 day dial. Then I checked their on-line catalog for watch parts and found several 'Fired Porcelain' watch faces. What's a person to believe?
Perhaps the clock companies called the faces porcelain so they would not be confused with the 'enamel' finish which, in most cases was not enamel in the fired-on sense.

Joe

[Mike Phelan]

Originally posted by collns:
Lamar,
Now I'm confused. I figured that maybe all clock people called these dials porcelain and all watch people called them enamel. Since LaRose sells supplies to both groups I thought I would check the terminology they used. The current Keep Book #283 had no 'hard' dials listed. I checked Keep Book #126 from 1973 and found one enamel dial listed. Looked like a 400 day dial. Then I checked their on-line catalog for watch parts and found several 'Fired Porcelain' watch faces. What's a person to believe?
Perhaps the clock companies called the faces porcelain so they would not be confused with the 'enamel' finish which, in most cases was not enamel in the fired-on sense.

Joe [HR][HR]
I think this is just a case of different terminology on opposite sides of the pond.
In UK, we never call them porcelain, and the term 'enamel' is used for hard, durable paints as well. Dial enamel (and that used on cast-iron cases) is called 'vitreous' from the word for glass.
You refer to a bonnet on a car as a 'hood' and a 'hood' on a clock as a bonnet.
Vive la difference! :wink:

[Scottie-TX]

And in Germany EMAIL is enamel. I've read/heard both terms used. I generally regard a dial that is not paper, metal, etc. that LOOKS like porcelain is probably porcelain and accept the description of enamel as another interpretation of the same thing. Usually I have found if someone describes it as enamel? It's probably what I regard as porcelain.

[Mike Phelan]

Just to add to the confusion (I'm getting good at that!) I have heard painted dials on longcase clocks called 'enamel'!

[dumbo2]

Well, the new face is on the clock and it looks much better than the plastic face that was on the beast when I got it. Took a couple of hours to do and not quite as neat as the picture Joe Collins was nice enough to send, but it looks like $33 well spent. Thanks again and my vote is for porcelain. CB

[lamarw]

Did you obtain your dial new, and if so from what source. Thirty-three dollars is a bargain for a porcelain/enamel dial. I could use a replacement dial for a clock I have.

[Joe Collins]

TimeSavers list porcelain Ansonia dials on page 60 of the latest catalog at $33 per copy.

Joe

[lamarw]

Thanks Joe, I took a look at those and unfortunately the winding arbor holes are too wide for my need. The Timesavers dials are listed for Ansonia china clocks. My need is for the brass clocks depicted on pg. 413 of the Tran Du Ly "Ansonia Clocks & Watches" publication. I know a source but they are special order and about four times the cost of Timesavers.