Repair & other info wanted

[Jay Mottern]

I just bought a 16s hunter-cased Ingersoll Trenton with a 15-jewel movement. It has a couple of (I hope) minor things wrong with it. I'm looking for opinions on what might be causing them in order to be better informed when I go to take it to be repaired.

First, it keeps fairly accurate time when in my pocket but if I leave it laying on its side for a length of time (overnight) it loses time. Do you think a cleaning and oiling would correct this (the person I bought it from said it had been sitting unused in a jeweler's shop for several years), or should I be hanging the watch stem-up when it's not in use rather than laying it on the dresser? Or both of the above?

By the way, what is the best way to store a regularly-used PW when you're not carrying it (short-term storage)?

Second, the cover opens up at the slightest provocation- just bumping the watch or pulling it out of my pocket is enough to make it spring open and show off the nice near-mint-condition face. Is this something that can be fixed, or does the case need replacing?

Lastly, all I can find out about Ingersoll-Trenton is that Ingersoll bought Trenton WC in 1908 then went out of business in (I think) 1922, so my watch was made somewhere between those dates. The serial number is 3416322. Does anyone know more precisely what year this watch was made?

Thanks.
-Jay

[Jay Mottern]

I just bought a 16s hunter-cased Ingersoll Trenton with a 15-jewel movement. It has a couple of (I hope) minor things wrong with it. I'm looking for opinions on what might be causing them in order to be better informed when I go to take it to be repaired.

First, it keeps fairly accurate time when in my pocket but if I leave it laying on its side for a length of time (overnight) it loses time. Do you think a cleaning and oiling would correct this (the person I bought it from said it had been sitting unused in a jeweler's shop for several years), or should I be hanging the watch stem-up when it's not in use rather than laying it on the dresser? Or both of the above?

By the way, what is the best way to store a regularly-used PW when you're not carrying it (short-term storage)?

Second, the cover opens up at the slightest provocation- just bumping the watch or pulling it out of my pocket is enough to make it spring open and show off the nice near-mint-condition face. Is this something that can be fixed, or does the case need replacing?

Lastly, all I can find out about Ingersoll-Trenton is that Ingersoll bought Trenton WC in 1908 then went out of business in (I think) 1922, so my watch was made somewhere between those dates. The serial number is 3416322. Does anyone know more precisely what year this watch was made?

Thanks.
-Jay

[GandalfPC]

A clean and oil is always the first step - no reason to assume that anything is wrong until then...

Short term storage: One of those glass domes should serve you pretty well - it will keep the dust out of it for short term storage. I don't have the domes and just hang mine on the wall - no dust protection, but fairly safe.

As far as the case goes, it is likely that some minor adjustments to the case will be able to fix it - should be handled during cleaning. I am sure replacement will not be needed.

Jason Goldman
Apprentice Watchmaker

[Hans Dahlke]

Jay,

the best information on Ingersoll and Trenton watches is contained in two NAWCC Bulletin articles by Donald J. Summar. The June 1980 issue (whole number 206, Vol. 22, No. 3) covers the Trenton Watch Company movements between 1887 and 1907 and the December 1984 issue (whole number 233, Vol. 26, No. 6) covers the Ingersoll-Trenton watches from 1908 - 1921.

The 15 jewel movement was introduced September 1910. Most Ingersoll-Trenton serial numbers fall in the 3,238,001-3,500,000 block of unused Trenton Watch Co. numbers.

As far as I know, these two references include all that has been written to date on these watches. Mr. Summar, the principal researcher, passed away several years ago. These Bulletin volumes can be borrowed from the NAWCC Library.

Hans

[Don Dahlberg]

If you hang a watch from a hook such that it can swing (as in the popular glass domes), it will gain about 1 1/2 minutes a day. This can also happen if you lay the watch dial up (or down) on a low friction surface such as glass or highly polished wood. The increase in rate is due to the fact that as the balance rotates in one direction, the rest of the watch is free to rotate in the opposite direction. This decreases what physics calls the "reduced mass" or effective mass of the balance and the watch runs fast.

Watches that are not adjusted for positions also run at different rates in different positions. This can be corrected by a good watchmaker. The first thing to do is have it properly cleaned and adjusted. When you store it running overnight it is best to have it pendant up in a way that the case cannot move. You can hang it from a hook if there is some way to keep it from swinging, such as against a felt back. In the old days before watches were adjusted well for positions they were stored like this in something called a "watch dog". If a watch is adjusted well for positions, then it can be stored in any position for which it has been adjusted, but on a high friction surface like a folded handkerchief.

As far as the watch case opening by itselt, it appears to be the result of many years of improper opening and closing of the case. When you open a hunter watch, catch the opening lid with the thumb of your other hand so as not to allow the momentum to bend the cover or fatique the hinge. When closing a hunter, do not click it closed, but instead depress the stem, close the cover and then release the stem. This way you do not wear out the thin lip on the cover that holds the cover close. Check out the lip on your cover. I would bet it is well warn. Many watchmakers have special case pliers that we use to try to bend the cover to increse the hold of the remaining lip. Close it properly from here on, because there is no replacing that lip that I have ever seen.

Don Dahlberg

[GandalfPC]

Is the effect of hanging on a hook reduced if it is hung from a long chain (foot long or so) instead of hanging from the bow itself (due to the increased distance from the center of rotation and extra mass of the chain)?

Jason Goldman
Apprentice Watchmaker

[Jay Mottern]

Thanks for the info, everyone. My watch is currently in the shop- and I miss it already. :smile:

[Jay Mottern]

I posted the below questions last April, and wish to post the answers for posterity in case other PW newbies have similar questions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jay Mottern:
I just bought a 16s hunter-cased Ingersoll Trenton with a 15-jewel movement. It has a couple of (I hope) minor things wrong with it. I'm looking for opinions on what might be causing them in order to be better informed when I go to take it to be repaired.

First, it keeps fairly accurate time when in my pocket but if I leave it laying on its side for a length of time (overnight) it loses time. Do you think a cleaning and oiling would correct this (the person I bought it from said it had been sitting unused in a jeweler's shop for several years), or should I be hanging the watch stem-up when it's not in use rather than laying it on the dresser? Or both of the above?

After having cleaned and oiled it, my watchmaker discovered that the mainspring needed replacing, which he did at no extra charge.

By the way, what is the best way to store a regularly-used PW when you're not carrying it (short-term storage)?

The thread of replies to my original message has several storage tips. I've been laying the watch flat on a pad consisting of a folded-up paper towel, and have not noticed and inaccuracy the next morning.

Second, the cover opens up at the slightest provocation- just bumping the watch or pulling it out of my pocket is enough to make it spring open and show off the nice near-mint-condition face. Is this something that can be fixed, or does the case need replacing?

The watchmaker who cleaned my watch tried to find a replacement lip for the case but couldn't. Another local watchmaker was able to jury-rig a fix using solder, which (if I'm careful to properly close the case from now on) should last awhile. I also had a problem with the split-ring on my watch chain, where the bow-clip connects to the chain proper, kept getting pulled open by the tension on the chain from pulling the watch out of my pocket. He was able to solder it shut as well.)

Lastly, all I can find out about Ingersoll-Trenton is that Ingersoll bought Trenton WC in 1908 then went out of business in (I think) 1922, so my watch was made somewhere between those dates. The serial number is 3416322. Does anyone know more precisely what year this watch was made?

The 15-jewel watches were first made in 1910 (or at least, was first advertised in September of that year) and was discontinued in 1917, as were the rest of the &gt;7-jewel movenemts, in favor of the Ingersoll Reliance line. 15-jewel movements were in the serial number range of 3,351,379 to 3,417,610.

If we subtract the lower serial number from the higher one we get 66231. Divide that by 7 (the number of years, roughly, this watch was made) and we get 9461.571428... call it 9461.

Adding 9461 to 3,351,379 gives us the approximate high S/N for 1911. Continuing the process to 1917 gives us 3,417,606. That's within four of the actual upper serial number count- not bad for seat-of-the-pants dead reckoning. That would mean my watch was probably made in 1916.


Thanks.
-Jay<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>