A newbies first buy didn't turn out so well

[duns4me]

This isn't a happy story. I thought it was, but it isn't. I purchased two Elgin pocket watches from a local antique mall today. The lady said they belonged to her grandparents. Said they were from the late 1800's possibly 1900. She said they just needed to be cleaned. She said if I took both, she'd take $10 off the pair. I paid $40 each for them. I told her I wanted one of them for a gift - but wanted both running. I took them to my local jeweler and asked if he knew a repair person. He turns out to be a master watch maker and opened them up. Here's where my story goes bad. He had this look on his face. You know, that look little kids get when an the ice cream falls out of their cones? I shared that look shortly after he broke the news to me.

ELGIN A: The one pictured on the left has no crown, of course - but will cost at least $100 to put on a new one. He doesn't know what else might be wrong with it from his cursory review, that's a starting price. He dated it to 1927.

ELGIN B: The second one is the real gem however, he said it is in the wrong style case - since it should have a lever set type case. Then he said, the balance appears to be broken. He doesn't know what else is wrong - it seemed rather pointless to ask for more. Repair would start around $150 - if he could get parts. He dated it to 1913.

I called the antique shop immediately and she wanted to NOT refund anything. Now, after discussion, she will refund all but 5%. I have to go in tomorrow and hope she remembers she will refund anything.

I feel like an idiot. Tell me - is it really as bleak as the jeweler / watch maker said it is?

Thanks for any input.

http://www.turnkeydesign.net/watches/2elgins.jpg

[duns4me]

This isn't a happy story. I thought it was, but it isn't. I purchased two Elgin pocket watches from a local antique mall today. The lady said they belonged to her grandparents. Said they were from the late 1800's possibly 1900. She said they just needed to be cleaned. She said if I took both, she'd take $10 off the pair. I paid $40 each for them. I told her I wanted one of them for a gift - but wanted both running. I took them to my local jeweler and asked if he knew a repair person. He turns out to be a master watch maker and opened them up. Here's where my story goes bad. He had this look on his face. You know, that look little kids get when an the ice cream falls out of their cones? I shared that look shortly after he broke the news to me.

ELGIN A: The one pictured on the left has no crown, of course - but will cost at least $100 to put on a new one. He doesn't know what else might be wrong with it from his cursory review, that's a starting price. He dated it to 1927.

ELGIN B: The second one is the real gem however, he said it is in the wrong style case - since it should have a lever set type case. Then he said, the balance appears to be broken. He doesn't know what else is wrong - it seemed rather pointless to ask for more. Repair would start around $150 - if he could get parts. He dated it to 1913.

I called the antique shop immediately and she wanted to NOT refund anything. Now, after discussion, she will refund all but 5%. I have to go in tomorrow and hope she remembers she will refund anything.

I feel like an idiot. Tell me - is it really as bleak as the jeweler / watch maker said it is?

Thanks for any input.

http://www.turnkeydesign.net/watches/2elgins.jpg

[Fred Hansen]

$100 for a crown?

I think you would do very well to have a second opinion on these repair costs.

I have to wonder what sort of "master" watchmaker this is if he can't manage to diagnose the problem for you but rattles off these 3 digit repair prices, and if he claims to have difficulty finding parts for an Elgin movement. :rolleyes:

I am sure members of this board can offer help and recommendations, and if you are able to post a few photos of the movements (mechanisms) of these watches I am sure you will get some accurate information on what you have.

Good luck!

Fred

[Harvey Mintz]

While I won't attempt to diagnose a watch without actually seeing it, it's pretty hard to see how a repair for these Elgins could possibly cost that much. You could buy a running replacement movement for less.

Definately, get a 2nd opinion, and avoid taking anything to that watchmaker again. I don't know where some people get their ideas about what to charge, but that's pretty outrageous IMHO.

Harvey J. Mintz
President, Watchmaker's Association of Ohio

[duns4me]

Thank you both for your input, Fred and Harvey.

I'll attach more pictures for your review.

I know you can't give a diagnosis - but maybe you can help me figure out what they are?

Maybe I can keep them after all if the repairs aren't as costly as I was first told. Maybe I'm starting to understand now why he wasn't interested in having me search for parts for the work - he said "I don't know where you think you'll find them."

ELGIN B: Here is a picture of the back of the watch on the right. The back screws off, so it was pretty easy for me.

Inside the movement: 17671607 Elgin Natl Watch Co USA


Thank you again. I hope I can salvage this purchase. I thought they were sort of pretty at first glance.

Sorry images are crude - I loaned out my digital camera and have to use the scanner for now.
http://www.turnkeydesign.net/watches/elgin_b_inside.jpg

[duns4me]

More info on the watches ...

ELGIN A:

I opened the back of the left hand watch (it is on a hinge) and found yet another "back". Inside that first swing-back it reads: PDT BOW CROWN PAT SEPT 17 1918 4757264 There is another number faintly crudely scratched above it - would that be important to read? I could try if it is important.

Inside the second cover of watch A: WARRANTED WADSWORTH 25 Years. On the movement it says: 30974627 Elgin Natl Watch Co USA 17 Jewels. Sorry about the picture quality - but I'm making due with my scanner while my digital camera is unavailable.

http://www.turnkeydesign.net/watches/elgin_a_inside.jpg

[Don Dahlberg]

The lesson is to do your homework, then you buy.

Your story is why we do not like to disucss value on this board. Condition may not be everything, but it is a big part of it. If you go to http://www.dashto.com and look up the price for parts movements and for nearly complete movements, you will see the prices are comparable to what you paid. If you want something that only requires cleaning and minor overhaul, and is in fair consmetic shape, you will have to pay much more than $40.

One way to get a feel for prices is to monitor the auctions on Ebay for a few months. You can also look at the "completed items" that are kept on file for one month. Take notes about the grade and conditions. After a while you get a feel for a fair price.

Don

[duns4me]

My apologies if my story is inappropriate, Don. I am absolutely new to pocket watches of any kind. I only thought of buying one less than a week ago as a gift for someone else. I've been trying to learn as quickly as I can. If you want to ignore the monetary parts of my questions and just help me figure out what these are - that would be very helpful. I tried to watch eBay, but for me it is almost an exercise in futility, I don't know the ins and outs - I'm not a collector at all. My apologies - should I delete the thread?

[John C.Smith]

Hi, I wouldn't say that you made a bad buy on those two Elgins, but to restate what has already been said, I would avoid taking anything to that watchmaker. His prices are out of line. When I first got into collecting watches I had a similar experience. I have a certain fondness for Gruen and Elgin watches, and the first watchmaker that I did business with would charge me more to overhaul a Gruen or Elgin that he would for anything else. This same watchmaker also "lost" a Lecoultre Automatic with a Wind Indicator that I took to him to have a new stem and crown installed. Needless to say that I was very upset! But back to your watches. It should be very easy to find the parts for your watches, and I should have every part that you would need for those watches, including new mainsprings (original Elgin parts of course). Don't get discouraged, as most people in the watch collecting community are not like that watchmaker. My experiences led me to learn how to repair watches, and I can't think of anything that I have enjoyed as much. Get yourself some good watch books and learn as much as you can about the things you collect. Best wishes.

[duns4me]

Thanks very much, John. I feel a whole lot better about the watches over all now. I'll call the antique dealer in the morning and tell her I'll just keep them. I do like them - but I guess the bleakness of the jewelers report pushed me over the edge into a panic. I would actually love to learn how to work on watches (old cameras too for that matter which I know more about) but I feel I'd botch it all up. I have a lot of respect for those of you who can work on such things. This is a brand new interest for me - but I am trying to learn.

To John & Harvey: Would either of you consider having a look at these two? Since you're actually members of the NAWCC, and you're both able to do repair, I'd feel MUCH (infinitely) more comfortable than with my local jeweler.

[Andy Dervan]

Hello,

Do not feel bad; we all made beginner's mistakes. Pickup a copy of Shugart's book on Pocket watches; it is available in Border's/Barners & Noble ($ 30). A new version is printed each or find a used version. He has a section on each watch company that contains production information, photographs, and pricing. It is nice compact 5 in X 7. It is watch collectors bible.

Roy Ehrhardt (deceased) published a series of books in spiral bound paper back on pocketwatches; they can be purchased from "Heart of American Press" or pickup used copies through online book sellers.

Barry Goldberg wrote a nice "Beginner's Guide to Pocketwatches" - a great little primer on pocket watches that packs alot of really excellent basic information into 40 pages or so. He sells it for $ 10.

If you invest a few dollars in a couple of good books you will quickly come up to speed with pocket watches.

Join NAWCC... It has alot to offer for watch and clock collectors.

Here are a few good reasons:

Organization publishes 6 issues a year BULLETIN a magazine with a variety of technical articles on watches and clocks. It has been published for almost 60 years - alot of great articles over the years.

Opportunity to meet and interact with collectors - pocket watch collectors can really get pumped up about their watches!!!

Library that you can borrow a huge variety of book, tapes, CD for minimal fee.

Suitcase Watch and Clock repair classes - local chapter organizes and National supplies an instructor. Tuition is $ 275; classes run 4 days and you really can learn alot about working either on watches or clocks. I have taken both beginner's clock and watch repair classes, and I learned alot - I don't plan on repairing either clocks or watches, but I can look at them and see potentially things wrong. Knowledge is power.

Andy Dervan

[Doc Mark]

Evening, Lynn,

Man, you ARE fast!! :smile: I agree with what's been said so far. The watchmaker you met is very high on his prices, and in my experience, when someone like him says that he can't find parts, or that it's really going to cost you, that usually means that he either doesn't know what he's talking about, or that he's looking at your as a meal ticket for his next vacation!

Mostly, I would slow down just a little, and try to get some of the books from the list I sent you. Then, after you've done some reading, and know a little more, you will have much better luck at antique malls and such. As I wrote to you, there are TONS of Elgins, Walthams, and other great watches, in the antique malls, just waiting for someone to buy them, fix them, clean and oil them, and give them a new lease on life. As to what you've already bought, I would NOT take them back to the "master watchmaker"!! If someone on this forum would like to check them out for you, that would be best. Otherwise, you might mention what part of the midwest you call home, and maybe someone here can point you to an honest and competent repairman, who's in your area, and who won't feather his bed at your expense!

Don't give up the ship, and remember, the more you know, the less mistakes you will make. But, also know this, we ALL have made mistakes, especially when we were new to all this. Hell, I'm STILL "new" to much of it, and like you, I can easily make a mistake, if I'm not careful. Read first, buy later, is good advice. But, for now, see if one of our NAWCC Brothers can check out your Elgins, or recommend an honest repairman near you, and see what they really need. I'll bet you can get them fixed up, and will be happy with your buy. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Kate N]

Below is the URL for my favorite website on which you can look-up info about your watches. I thoroughly enjoy the entire site, not just the databases for look-ups. Unless you wrote the serial numbers wrong or I misread what the serial number look-up info stated, neither of those is a lever-set watch--both are pendant set. Of course, there could be an error in the database. A lever-set watch will have a small lever that you need to slide out from the dial edge, in order to set the time, instead of pulling-up on the crown.
You'll have to "cut and paste" the URL, as the webmaster of that site doesn't seem to like direct links to his site.
http://www.elginwatches.org
If you want to look-up your watch movement serial numbers, go to that site's databases.
Be careful with watches, though---most of us have found that they're like potato chips---you can't have just one :biggrin:
Enjoy!
Kate

[mikeh]

Hi,

Like everyone else has said, I'm not so sure you did that badly. My first purchase was about the same amount and I only got one 12s Waltham. Although it was running, it only did so for about a year and had to be cleaned.

Much like you, I started to seek out someone to clean and oil it and found that most folks charged more than I had since found out the watch was worth. This is not to say that watchmakers charge too much, but in lower end watches, that's just the way it is.

Anyway, I bought the price guide that Dan mentioned. In addition to the information on different companies, it has a section near the front that explains the basics of how a pocket watch works. I read it and was hooked. I bought a $7 16s elgin parts movement on ebay and to my surprise it would actually run a little. After purchasing a cheap set of screwdrivers, and a pair of tweezers, I sat at the kitchen table and took the watch apart and put it back together. Nevermind cleaning, I just wanted to see if I could do it without destroying it. Again to my surprise, it still worked about the same as before. Now I was REALLY hooked.

So, my point is that if you are mechanically inclined, as you seem to be, don't be affraid to jump in to cleaning/repair hobby. I find it very satisfying (when I have the time). A few quick searches in the Watch Repair section and you'll find some good advice on books, tools, etc.

Enjoy!!!

[Smudgy]

Both of those watches appear to be stem-set, so I doubt that the database gave erroneous information on that point. I would definitely take the watch to a different person if I were to have it worked on.

[bobswatch]

Hi Dunes:
Over the years I have repaired hundreds upon hundreds of pocket watches and have many parts for them (new and used). I will replace the crown and clean and service watch A for you free of charge, provided that't all it needs. You pay the S&H&I to and from me.
If interested in my offer send me a private email or call me at 336 847 9798 EST.
Merry Christmas.
Bob

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, Bob, and All,

Bob, though I do not know you, personally, I want to thank you for jumping in with your kind and generous offer to Lynn!!! Your thoughtfulness not only sings of true Christmas spirit, but it also upholds the best traditions of the NAWCC!! Huzzah to you, Sir!! Have a very Merry Christmas, and a fantastic New Year!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[duns4me]

Morning everyone,

The helpful posts from you all are very appreciated. Thank you all. This is an amazing community.

To Bob / Bobswatch:
Thanks very much for your extremely kind offer. But, I don't want to put you out - I'd be happy to pay your rate. Watch "A" might be in okay shape other than that crown. I did a little reading from a repair page, and from its suggestion, tried a mild shake of the watch. It ticks! (For 4 - 10 seconds per shake). I'll give you a call in a short while.

To Doc Mark:
Yes, fast wasn't it? I thank you very much for your very good ideas that you've sent me over the last week. I hadn't really thought I'd find any to buy when I went to look. I was just trying to check out the antique and Good Will shops as a learning experience. These two just seemed appealing and when she offered to sell them for $40 each ... well... that was that. Another antique vendor in the mall was selling a smaller Elgin and a slightly larger Waltham for $135 each - but they were clearly marked as needing work and missing parts. My two seemed like such a bargain in comparison. I guess they still are - because I am learning a lot.

To SMUDGY & ALL:
I'm happy to know that the jeweler was off in some ways. As several people here have pointed out - watch B is a stem set watch. The fact that he called it otherwise seems more than troubling. I'm glad I asked here!

To Andy and Mike and ALL:
The idea of learning repair (as many of you pointed out) is getting more interesting. After Christmas, I'll see if I can get some of the recommended books and a not too badly damaged practice watch. Maybe the tools carry over to cameras - I'll have to check on that - but I'd feel slightly less daunted (ONLY SLIGHTLY) about opening the watch compared to the cameras. A friend of mine works on cameras - but I have not had the nerve to do so myself. Joining the NAWCC sounds like a smart move. So I'll have to do that after the new year rolls around - sounds like I'll learn even more that way. Maybe if my self-teaching goes well, I could try one of those repair classes they offer sometime. Would be fun.

To Kate N:
That's a really neat database! Thanks for sending it. I found both of mine on there, and although I understand the first line of returned information, I get a little confused over the remaining data on the page - about the other watches in the range. I'll keep reading and trying to extract the meaning - it will sink in eventually. Nice to see another woman (besides me) in the discussion. I blame my fall into this interest on having found my dad's old Westclox Bullseye last week. That was the first potato chip! Thank you!

-Lynn

[lamarw]

Hi Lynn, Along with the other reference material that has been recommended to you - You might want to obtain a copy of the old U.S. Military TM 9-1575. It is a WWII era Ordanance Corps Technical Manual on watches and some limited clocks repair and servicing. Provides simplistic language along with numerous pictures and even information on repair tools. The cheapest source I found was off eBay from a seller that provides it on a computer CD. You can either review in on your screen or print your own copy (little over 200 pages). Hard copies are also available off the internet but for about twice the cost of the CD. Send me a private message if you desire the seller's ebay listing name.

[duns4me]

Thank you, Lamar, for your idea. Looks like a good suggestion. I'll send you a message for the seller's id in a short while.

[duns4me]

I spoke with Bob (bobswatch) on the phone for a long while this morning. I learned more in a half hour casual chat about watches than I could have imagined. Thanks to sound advice, I'll try my hand learning on some inexpensive Quartz watches, then see if I can gradually learn about the mechanical types. I'll check out the books, local chapter of NAWCC, and the community colleges and see how far I can get in learning about how these things work - as time and budget permit. Bob is going to help me with the first watch (Watch A) and I am very grateful! That will be the gift watch I was hoping to give. The other one can wait. I might see if I have any sort of aptitude and if so, maybe I'll take it on as a more serious repair one day.

I was saying to Bob, there seems to be an abundance of good will among watch-people. It's really nice to find. I hope someday I can know enough to repay the kindness to someone else who's learning. Thank you all. Thanks especially to Bob - I think you have a little bit of good St. Nicholas, or guardian-watch-angel, in you. :smile:

[bobswatch]

Hi Doc Mark & Lynn:
Thank you both for your kind words.I think you both are the real spirit of Christmas, not me.
Merry Christmas to you, and I'm sure Santa will be good to you both.
Bob

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, Bob,

Thank you, Sir, for your kind words. Your actions, in dealing with Lynn, really do exhibit the best of Christmas spirit, though! In a day when most folks ask, "what's in it for me?", and when it seems that Christmas is just another way to make money, your generous and kind offer to help Lynn is refreshing, indeed!! To me, it harkens back to a day when people were a little more kind to each other, when a man's word was his bond, and when doing a good deed for another was the rule of the day, rather than the exception. Your actions make me proud to be a NAWCC member, Bob! Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark