Ball-Hamilton

[o.c.kid]

I have the subject watch with serial number 14,420. Can anyone tell me if this is a grade 936?

[o.c.kid]

I have the subject watch with serial number 14,420. Can anyone tell me if this is a grade 936?

[Don Dahlberg]

It is a 999B that is a member of the batch that went to the finishing room on either 12/24/95 or 3/11/97.

Don

[Kent]

o.c.kid:

Does it have any private label markings, or is it marked "Ball & Co.?

Thanks,
Kent

[o.c.kid]

It is marked "OFFICIAL RR STANDARD" on the movement and on the dial. Also saphire pallets and adjusted. In my Cooksey Shugart, it doesn't list a 999B. It it anything special? Thanks

[Don Dahlberg]

Hamilton made the watch to Ball's specifications and called it the 999. Rumor has it that the number was after the famous train engine 999 that first broke the 100 mph record. I have never seen that verified. There are several 999 versions including versions B, C and D. I have not figured out the difference between these. All Ball watches are special to railraod watch collectors. Kent can tell you more about Ball watches.

Don

[Kent]

When Don said "All Ball watches are special to railraod watch collectors." He was almost 100% correct. Actually, all Ball "Official Standard" and other railroad grade watches are special to railroad watch collectors. Interest in Ball "Commercial Standard" watches, ladies watches and other non-rialroad grades is on an individual basis.

The "999" grade number started appearing on Hamilton-built Ball Official Standard watches around 1904 - 1905, although Hamilton records show that grade number applied to Hamilton-Ball Official Standard watches almost from the beginning.

Just about every railroad watch collector above the novice level has probably heard the story about how Ball had wisely chosen the number because of a fast passenger engine. However, I doubt that most of those people have stopped to consider the lack of significance of that fact.

On May 10, 1893, the New York Central & Hudson River Rail Road engine number 999, the Empire State Express, set the land speed record (which at that time amounted to every speed record) by going 112-1/2 miles per hours just west of Batavia, NY. The number "999" started being used at Hamilton for Ball watches two years later, in the spring of 1895. Then, it was almost ten years before the number "999" started appearing on the 18-size watches.

Perhaps more significantly, having just looked through my files, I can't find a single instance where Ball even mentioned the grade number "999" in any ad, catalog or watch inspection document during the 20 years (1895 - 1915) that Hamilton built 18-size Ball watches. The only grade designation that had appeared was "Official Standard."

Edited to add:
Oops - Ed called my attention to a 1902 Ball catalog that is reproduced in "American Pocket Watch 1977 Price Indicator, Identification and Price Guide,"Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1977 (A new edition is still in print, see http://www.hoapress.com). Pages 59 and 61 show a number of pages of that catalog which list the "Official 999 Standard" right along with the Official RR and Brotherhood Standards. However, there is no picture or description of what the "Official 999 Standard" is.

[Don Dahlberg]

Has anyone ever seen a dial on a Hamilton-Ball marked only 999? I saw one such watch and dial and was told that the dial was put on Hamilton 999s for shipping to Ball and was then replaced by a Ball dial. The 999 dial was then returned to Hamilton. The only reason I can think of doing such a thing would be to keep the minute and hour wheels in place, but this could be done without going through such expense. Any other ideas?

Don

[Kent]

It turns out that there are references to a Ball "Official 999 Standard" in a 1902 Ball catalog. See my editied post above.

[BUZZ BAZARNICKI]

Don wrote.....

"Has anyone ever seen a dial on a Hamilton-Ball marked only 999? I saw one such watch and dial and was told that the dial was put on Hamilton 999s for shipping to Ball and was then replaced by a Ball dial. The 999 dial was then returned to Hamilton. The only reason I can think of doing such a thing would be to keep the minute and hour wheels in place, but this could be done without going through such expense. Any other ideas?"

I find that hard to believe or verify as,to the best of my knowledge,Webb C. Ball NEVER made,produced,or manufactured any watch parts or equipment!!!.....I believe the dials were ordered from,and produced by,the Hamilton Watch Co. and sent to Ball....Remember gang....back in the day ya could get just about anthing you wanted placed on the dial and/or the movement for just a couple 'o bucks!!....I'm sure Ball just ordered the dials & watches to meet his specs from Hamilton as he was just a jobber and never made anything !!

I know this is an old thread....but I was just goin' through some of the ol' info...saw this...and felt that it should be clarified..Interesting theory though....

-Buzz-

[Don Dahlberg]

Buzz,

I know that Ball contracted out the construction of all parts, but in the early days they ordered the movements from one of the major companies like Hamilton, and ordered the cases from the case company. They then adjusted the movement and cased the watch. It is possible that they ordered the Ball dial from another company if the price was better than Hamilton offered.

The story as told to me was that Hamilton put on this 999 dial to hold in the minute wheel and hour wheel, shipped it to Ball, Ball replaced the dial with their normal dial and Ball then shiped these 999 dials back to Hamilton to be used again. I find it hard to beleive too. The only way this could work is if they got a better dial deal from say Waltham and all the watches had dial feet in the same locations. Never the less, I held in my hand an 18 size Hamilton-Ball 999 with a single sunk dial with just "999" where the company logo would normally be located. Until I have a better story, I'll stick with the one told to me. :smile: It is the only way I can get to sleep at night.

Don

[Fred Hansen]

Don -

I believe Jeff Hess showed one of these "999" signed dials on this board about a year ago, along with some other incredible Ball items. If I can find his thread and photos I'll post a link here.

Fred

[Kent]

Here's the old ref::Link. I was looking for it while Fred answered. The dial is the third link down.

Don't forget to click on the magnifying glass to enlarge the picture.

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Kent (and of course Jeff)! Serial #603 ... and a pretty neat set of hands too.

Fred

[Don Dahlberg]

Yes, a neat dial, but not what I saw years ago. The dial just said "999". Nothing else. The thing I like about this hobby is that there is always something new in things that are old.

Don

[Jeff Hess]

Also in my material from the Ball family is an official photo of the famed "999" Locomotive that they used for advertising.

Jeff
http://static.flickr.com/54/152212770_90e331f1e2.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/49/152212769_39f41dbb5a.jpg

[BUZZ BAZARNICKI]

DON....

NOBODY.....NOT WALTHAM ,ELGIN, OR WHOEVER IS GOING TO GO THROUGH THE TROUBLE TO REPLICATE ANOTHER MANUFACTURE'S DIAL SPECS...I.E., DIAL FOOT POSITIONS AND CERTAINLY NOT FOR LESS!!!....IF IT'S A HAMILTON-BALL DIAL....IT CAME FROM HAMILTON.


JEFF.....

I HATE TO SEEM STUPID..ER....THAN I AM...BUT I ADMIT TO BEING COMPUTER CHALLANGED...SO I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YA...PLEASE TELL ME IN THE SIMPLEST TERMS AND/OR INSTRUCTIONS....HOW THE HELL YOU PUT PHOTOS DIRECTLY INTO THESE POSTS WITHOUT ...LINKS,URLS,WMD'S,ABC'S,DO-RE-ME'S...WHY CAN'T I COPY & PASTE OR JUST ADD THEM FROM MY PHOTOS LIKE I DO WHEN I SEND PICS THROUGH MY EMAIL ??...AGAIN KEEP IT SIMPLE & EASY...PLEASE!!

ALSO....A SIMPLE EXPLAINATION ON HOW TO CUSTOMIZE MY AVATAR...YA KNOW, THE LIL' PICTURE DEWHICKIE UNDER OUR NAMES OVER IN THE LEFT COLUMN....THANKS FOR ANY HELP!!

[terry hall]

Buzz...

Where U been in so long??? and whatcha yellin for?? :biggrin:

You have to have images on remote server now, the ability to post images directly to the board was discontinued some time ago, band width and storage capacity problems i believe..

(tom C will explain better...)

Jeff used Flikr ... which is described in the 'how to post images' link at the top of the page...

http://www.larjones.com/data/imagehelp.html

But this link may be 'better'...

old ref::http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4166015461/m/4711051451

I still have my ftp space, so i still use it for bringing in images...

when the image is on the remote space, in the 'reply' box click the "image" icon on the tool bar and enter the url... you can post multiple images also...

[BUZZ BAZARNICKI]

TERRY...

THANKS....ER....I THINK.. :eek:..I'LL GIVE IT A TRY, MAYBE EVEN I CAN FIGURE THIS COMPUTER STUFF OUT....I'M A WATCHMAKER NOT A GEEK!!... :wink:

OHH..I'VE BEEN AROUND...JUST WATCHIN' YOU GUYS QUIETLY IN THE WINGS LIKE BIG BROTHER WITH MY NEW COMPUTER/DSL/PHONE WIRE-TAP KIT I GOT FROM THE NSA WITH ONLY 2 BOXTOPS & $4.95 FOR SHIPPING & HANDLING.. :rolleyes:...

I'M NOT YELLING...I JUST LIKE THE CAP LETTERS....BESIDES A LOT O' YA GUYS DON'T LISTEN OR ARE HEARING IMPAIRED.. :biggrin:...NO ACTUALLY, MY CAPS LOCK IS STUCK AND UNLESS I HOLD DOWN THE SHIFT KEY FOR EVERY BUTTON I TYPE I DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. :frown:

THANKS AGAIN FOR THE INFO...I'LL TRY FLIKR...OR FIND OUT IF MY ISP...NETZERO...WILL HOST IMAGES...WISH ME LUCK!!!