16s BALL, who made it? and when?

[Mr_Smurf]

Hi

I have just bought a Commercial Standard Ball, 16s 17 Jewels with serialnumber 2291XX.

Was it a waltham ball and when was it made?

[Mr_Smurf]

Hi

I have just bought a Commercial Standard Ball, 16s 17 Jewels with serialnumber 2291XX.

Was it a waltham ball and when was it made?

[Don Dahlberg]

It would sure help if we had a clear picture of the movement.

Don

[Kent]

Mr_Smurf:

While Don is generally correct that it is very helpful to see a picture of a private label watch in order to help identify the manufacturer, some watches are well enough known to have been from one source, that a picture isn't necessary. Such is the instance of this 16-size, 17-jewel, Ball Commercial Standard. According to page 36 of “American Railroad Watches,” George E. Townsend, Col. G.E. Townsend, Alma, MI, 1977 (may be still in print, see Heart of America Press (http://www.hoapress.com)), it was built by waltham in 1907.

[Mr_Smurf]

It says adjusted on the movement, what adjustments does it have?

And what waltham grade and model is it?

Thanks for your help :smile:

[Kent]

Using the same reference as noted above, it's Waltham serial number is 15,229,1XX. My Waltham reference books haven't been unpacked yet, but I suspect that its going to be listed as a Ball Comm. grade.

A 1908 Ball catalog lists the 16-size, 17-jewel, Commercial Standard as being adjusted to temperature and three positions.

[terry hall]

from waltham database lookup

http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/LookupSN.asp

Start: End:
First: 15227701 Last: 15229300
Model: Ball Name:
Material: P Grade: Off. Std.,
Size: 16 Size: 16
Plate: Plate:
Jewelling: Jewels: 17
Balance: Bal: Pat. Reg. - Breg. HS
Style: OF Style:
O.F.

Comment: 69
Source: Date:

[Kent]

Terry:

I looked at that before. I suspect that there is an error. It is not an Official Standard grade. The Townsend book shows that the run is B228901-B229900, Grade: Comm.

[Kent]

O.K.

I found the box containing my copy of the gray book (“Serial Numbers With Description of Waltham Watch Movements,” Waltham Watch Co., Waltham, MA, 1954). It shows run 15,228,901-15,229,900 as Com. Std. grade.

Note to Tom McIntyre: You might want to correct this run in the Waltham Serial Number Data Base.

[terry hall]

thanks kent......

[Norman Bliss]

Mr. Smurf,

Waltham's 16s Ball watches were made to Ball's design, so aren't any grade of Waltham.

Norman

[Kent]

One has to realize that even thnough the movements were marked adjusted when they left the Waltham factory, the final adjustment to temperature and position was done by Ball personnel at the Ball facility.

This applies to all of the Ball watches, from at least the era of the Howard Balls, up to at least the late 1920s, possibly later.

[Robert Sweet]

Kent,
Thanks for that good info.

Do you have printed information about the final adjustments that you could share?

Robert

[Kent]

Robert:

No and yes. What Ed and I know on the subject was published in the 4-part Ball columns June-December, 2002 (wow - that was four years ago already!)

On the other hand, I think that Don Dahlberg once posted some Hamilton documents indicating the adjustment they were going to propose to Ball for an ORRS watch in the late 20s or early 30s.

[Robert Sweet]

Thanks Kent, I will try to find those "Bulletins" and check on Don's info.

Thanks again.

Robert

[Mr_Smurf]

It says Commercial Standard on the movement.

[Don Dahlberg]

At the NAWCC Library and Research center we have a folder of correspondence between Hamilton and Ball over a twenty year period.

In 1928 Hamilton proposed that both the Hamilton and Illinois Ball watches be completed, adjusted and cased at the Lancaster and Springfield factories. They negotiated for a couple of years. The negotiations got a little heated for a while. The question deal with who paid for the new tooling for the new models that were being designed. Eventually Ball went along with the idea and started letting their adjusters in Cleveland go.

It was not long into their conversion that Hamilton sent Ball a bunch of watches that failed timing tests. There were some hot letters going back and forth on this one as well. It is all about who pays for the re-adjusting.

Don

[Robert Sweet]

Don,
Thanks for the info.

Robert