"Funny numbers" continued, as requested by some of the 149 club

[Jon Hanson]

http://members.aol.com/jonontime/71.jpg

Discovered at Brimfield (Waltham's back yard) several decades ago by this writer. :razz:

Enjoy! :wink:

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
President chapter 149

[Jon Hanson]

http://members.aol.com/jonontime/71.jpg

Discovered at Brimfield (Waltham's back yard) several decades ago by this writer. :razz:

Enjoy! :wink:

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
President chapter 149

[Jerry Treiman]

Jon, thanks for sharing this one with everyone. I suspect that this probably began it's life as a Waltham-Howard (#1005344) and someone added the "7" around the same time the "E. Howard Watch Co." name was removed. The finger-bridges for the fourth and escape wheels are the same shape used for the Waltham-Howards at this time. The winding wheels, regulator index and scale are also nearly unique to this contract. Is the under-dial number 605,344? That would clinch it, as the similar Waltham-Howards came from the Waltham run 12,605,xxx.

[Charles Isham]

Thanks so much for the great scan and even greater watch shown here. Could you please tell me the dial type and signature?

For those that love these rare Walthams, I envite readers to view the wonderful bridge Waltham-Howard shown on the chapter 149 message board.

Chas.

Charles Isham

[Jerry Treiman]

For those curious about the Waltham-Howard story, there is some preliminary information (including serial number ranges) and illustration of various movement styles in a "Research Activities" submission by myself and co-authors* published in the June 1998 NAWCC Bulletin (p.330-332. I guess I am always looking for more pieces to the puzzle, but I am nearing completion of a final article for submittal to the Bulletin. I would love to hear from anyone with information to contribute (and thank you to the many who have already shared serial numbers with us).

*Jerry Treiman, Eugene Fuller (deceased), Art Leibold and Carl Goetz

[Nigel Harrison]

Hi All and Jerry,

I know this forum thread is a bit old but I have some info on the Waltham Howard bridge model that might be interesting and I have a question. I have also posted this info on Tom McIntyre's forums hoping to get some thoughts as the movement links in closely with some of the pics on the awco.org site.

The Story: I have recently received quite an unusual movement. After a bit of research and from great help from the awco.org site I have worked out that movement is a 16s Waltham Howard 23J Bridge movement.

However the story does not stop there as the movement has some very interesting attributes. I will try to attach some pictures below of the watch.

When I first received the movement I thought it was a fake as it had straight finger bridges instead of the curved ones that I expected it to be like on the 16s 1899 American Watch Co. Bridge Movement.

So after looking at the ‘Collections’ area on the awco.org site I saw the Waltham Howard 23J Bridge movement there with a serial number of 1005421 and it had the straight fingers. I was glad to see I had a genuine movement but I was even further shocked to see that I have this watches brother. The movement I have is serial number 1005420 so I was pretty excited about that!!!!

The other very interesting thing is how different my watch is from the one on the awco.org website. My movement has nothing on the movement about howard watch co (these were manually engraved). My movement only has ’23 Jewels’ ‘ADJUSTED’ and the serial number engraved on the movement. The other very interesting this is that mine has a Waltham dial which has is just about exactly the same as dial you would find on a Waltham ‘American Watch Co’ Grade Bridge Model. My watch does have the same winding wheel design though.

It seems my watch has some of the same attributes as another watch listed in the Collections area of the awco.org website. That watch is called ‘Waltham Display Case’ SN: H829624 listed under the same Waltham Howard area. This watch also just has minimal details on the movement the same as mine, but this Waltham Display Case Watch has curved bridge and fingers. So it seems my watch is a mixture of these two watches on the awco.org site, I hope this helps out working some more of history around these watches.

I am not a person who dismantles movements or removes dials normally but I think I will try to take the dial off this watch to see if I can work out if it is original and to also check the serial number under the dial (as I would have expected the dial to be a howard). Another interesting thing is I think my watch has diamond pallet jewels as these are clear. I think all the other balance jewels are sapphire though as they don’t seem clear.

I don’t think my watch is in the original case as I can see another faint screw mark right beside one of the screws. The case is a keystone OF Gold Filled with only very minor wear on the stem and bow.

Also, a question:
The watch is currently not working as the balance staff seems damaged. Can anyone tell me what balance assembly is interchangeable with this movement? I have some P.S Bartlett and Royal grade movements that are models 1899 & 1908, would these suit? These Royal & P.S Bartlett balance wheels have solid gold balance screws just like the bridge model. If I know which one to use I can take it to my watch repairer to change over.

So after all that take a look at the pics and let me know what you think of it.

Regards,

Nigel.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~nharriso/mypic3.JPG
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~nharriso/mypic4.JPG

[Jerry Treiman]

Hi Nigel -- Great find!. You have one of the movements that apparently had the "E.Howard Watch Co." name removed and was then re-damasceened before being sold. We have seen a number of these in most of the models produced (12 and 16 size; bridge and split-plate). The company name was originally stamped in the plates with a die and these have a uniform appearance. A few of the re-finished movements have had the Howard name re-engraved by hand, sometimes reading "E.Howard Co." without an ampersand (&). Most have their original Howard dial, with the Howard name polished off (a "ghost" of it can sometimes be seen when the dial is held at the right angle); others have had a Waltham or a blank dial put on them. My own theory is that when Keystone began producing their own equivalent movements they took their remaining Waltham-Howard stock, removed the name, and wholesaled them out as anonymous movements. This is similar to what they did several years later when they sold unpopular hunting-case movements under the Abbott "Sure Time" label.

A bridge-model movement like this has a better-finished and adjusted balance wheel with gold screws. Furthermore, the serial number will be scratched on the underside of the balance arm. If you were to attempt to switch the complete balance assembly it would no longer be original. However, these take a standard Waltham friction staff and should be easily and correctly repairable.

Your dial is close, but not quite the American Watch Co. grade dial found on most Waltham bridge models. On most bridge-model dials the five-minute marks will be delicate inward-pointing triangles. Also, they are usually double-sunk.

[Nigel Harrison]

Hi Jerry,

Thanks very much for the reply. Does the standard friction staff that you talk about exist in normal 1899 & 1908 movements?

Thanks,

Nigel.

[Jon Hanson]

Nigelh,

What is the case maker of your watch? It appears that a DS DIAL WOILD NOT FIT UNDER THE HINGED FRONT LID. I own some Ebglish cased 99's that have SS dials, as the DS ones would not fit.

[Nigel Harrison]

Hi Jon,

My Dial is only single sunk, not double. The case is a American Keystone GF type, I think 15 years as it has the scales without the crown.

Do these 1899 bridge moevements take a standard model 1899 dial? As that would explain why it is easy to put a waltham dial on this movement rather than a howard one.

Regards,

Nigel.

[Jon Hanson]

Nigel,

The dial feet are ALL THE SAME ON THESE 16S WALTHAMS.

I known your dial is SS and a DS one will probably not fit your case (too thick)--this was my point.

[Nigel Harrison]

OK, I'm with you Jon.

Thanks for the info.

Regards,

Nigel.

[Jon Hanson]

N,

I have some 99s 23J in open face and Eng cases that are so tight that a double sunk won't allow for the front lid to close, so single sunk correct* dials were used.

Also, some Amer Hunting cases also don't allow clearance under the bezel for DS dials.

* meaning right style, type, numerial design and
sig.

[Nigel Harrison]

Jon,

Yes, I know what you mean. I had a 1883 15J Crescent St 18s in 14k Hunter and it had a DS dial as a normal C St would. But the bezel accommidated the dial as the bezel base rose up very high from the watch to sit over the thick dial. I thought it was a bit strange looking when I first saw it but I could see why it was required.

It is interesting how some cases were purpose built for certain movements.

Regards,

Nigel.

[Jerry Treiman]

Balance staffs - Waltham used two friction staffs on the 1899 model - part #4860 or #4861. The #4860 had a large hub around which the roller table (with a large central hole) would seat. The #4861 has a tapered shoulder that fits snug inside the blued hub of the balance wheel (and uses a roller table with a smaller hole). I don't recall seeing the #4860 on the 1908 model but wouldn't swear to it. Your bridge model should take one of these staffs.

[Tom McIntyre]

The English distinguish between a "Crystal" case that has a flat front with a bit of curvature on the back surface and a normal "Open Face" that is more like the American style.

In my experience, the Crystal cases always have single sunk dials because of the decreased thickness.

Although not on an American watch the two styles are shown in a catalog from Barraud & Lunds on my web site.

http://www.awco.org/European/Barraud/B-Lprice/BarraudListP10.jpg

[Nigel Harrison]

Thanks again for the info guys,

I will print out the information about staffs that you have given me Jerry and show this to my watch repairer along with the 1899 movements that I have spare. There is a bit of a knowledge gap here in Australia when it comes to repairing American Watches. But I have now got a good old fashioned repairer who knows what he is doing with antique watches. He might not know all the specific grades from the different manufacturers but he knows his parts.

Tom, Am I able to ask who owns the Waltham Howard 23J on your website with SN: 1005241 which is the movement made just one after mine? Just for personal interest.

Thanks Again,

Nigel.

[Jon Hanson]

I BELIEVE IT IS TOM'S WATCH.